Hydraflow HGL Issue with Box Culverts

Anonymous

Hydraflow HGL Issue with Box Culverts

Anonymous
Not applicable

I have encountered an odd behavior with Hydraflow when attempting to run analysis on a  box culvert running under pressure. Whenever I run the analysis, the HGL will not go above the top/crown of the box, even though the capacity of the box is clearly being exceeded. Hydraflow verifies this as you can see in the screenshot - The actual flow is 698 cfs, but the capacity is 390 cfs. However, the HGL just tracks along the crown of the box.

 

If I reduce the flow into the system to reach partial flow, the HGL line works fine since it's below the crown, but once the capacity of the box is reached, the HGL won't keep going up. Also, if I change the box to a circular pipe within Hydraflow, the HGL will jump up to the expected location above the pipe and for every pipe (including the box culverts) upstream of the circular pipe. The issue seems to be limited to the shape of my pipes. Does anyone have experience with this?

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Timothy_Sean_Hulbert
Autodesk
Autodesk

Greetings,

 

Thank you for your recent forum post.  My name is Sean and I am more than happy to help you with this issue. I understand you have questions about the Hydraulic Grade Line generated by Autodesk Hydraflow. I will see if I can reproduce this issue in my environment. Would it be possible for you to provide the file you are working with?

 

I have subscribed to the thread though and will continue to monitor it should you need additional assistance. If you would like to communicate directly, you may do so at any time by sending me a private message in the forum.

 



Timothy "Sean" Hulbert, PE

Product Support Specialist

Link Name | Link Name | Link Name | Link Name
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Anonymous
Not applicable
Sean,
Attached is the Hydraflow file in question as requested. My issue is limited to the large box culvert in the system - You should be able to see the issue in Line 1 through Line 10 for example. I have added excess flow to the system to the point where the capacity of the box culvert is greatly exceeded, but the HGL reaches the inside top of pipe and stops. I would expect the HGL to keep rising above the pipe as it does with circular pipe. Also note that if you change one of the box culvert segments to a circular pipe, the HGL will jump up there, and continue above the pipes (circular or box) upstream.
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wfberry
Mentor
Mentor

Since your file does not appear, just change the suffix of the file to .txt and there should be no problem.

 

Bill

 

 

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Anonymous
Not applicable

Thanks for the help - Attached is my .stm file attached as a .txt file.

fcernst
Mentor
Mentor

I get the same result with your file in 2018.

 

..Another big problem with Hydraflow now is that it will not take a tailwater elevation above the Crown of pipe. It will go up to Crown as you have set in your file, but no higher.

 

It keeps setting the tailwater depth to Critical if the tailwater is higher than Crown.

 

Can't be used for design.

 

 

 

Capture.JPG



Fred Ernst, PE
C3D 2025
Ernst Engineering
www.ernstengineering.com

Hidden_Brain
Advisor
Advisor

Another big problem with Hydraflow now is that it will not take a tailwater elevation above the Crown of pipe. It will go up to Crown as you have set in your file, but no higher.

 

Thanks for the heads up! that's not good. one hydraulic software does not let water rise above pipe, another makes the water disappear when surcharged. Perfect! Smiley LOL

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Anonymous
Not applicable

I am have exact problem with analyzing a simple three pipes network system. The HGL will not go above the top/crown of the box although the incoming inflow is way above the capacity of the pipe system. The first two pipes are connected with drop curb. The HGL in the second pipe is not going about the top/crown of the box while the HGL in the first pipe go above the crown of the box in respond to change in inflow. Any help would be appreciated! Thanks.

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wfberry
Mentor
Mentor

Autodesk purchased Boss International sometime prior to 2010 and with Boss they employed its' founder Chris Maeder.  Chris left Autodesk several years ago and as far as I can tell the "Good Ship SSA" has no captain. Perhaps someone can convince me I am wrong.

 

Bill

 

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BrianHailey
Mentor
Mentor

As far as I know, @Charlie.Ogden is the head of all things water in the Infrastructure team at Autodesk. Perhaps he can enlighten us on this issue.

Brian J. Hailey, P.E.



GEI Consultants
My Civil 3D Blog

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xiaoming.fei
Autodesk
Autodesk

@Anonymous Thanks for your testing. I checked it in Civil 3D 2018. Followings are the results of stm file, actual flow is 615.50cfs (smaller than your flow). But results are similar, HGL line is same to rectangular pipe obvert.

1.JPG2.JPG

 

From this table, we could do a simple check.

  • Total pipe loss = EGLup – EGLdown = 667.65+3.68-667.61+3.68 = 0.04ft.
  • Meanwhile, Total pipe loss = Sf * Length = 1.126%*9 = 0.10134 ft.

They should be same in this case, but they are different. Total pipe loss calculated by Sf is more reasonable, since actual flow is bigger than capacity flow, HGL should be higher than pipe obvert.

There probably exists a defect when calculating rectangular pipe EGLup. Need to check codes to make clear where the problem is.

I will log a defect for this.

 

 

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xiaoming.fei
Autodesk
Autodesk

@fcernst The tailwater problem you described could be reproduced. I will also log a defect for it. Thanks!

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Anonymous
Not applicable

Howdy,

 

I am also encountering this issue. Has there been any updates or "work arounds" found for this issue?

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timothy.lawrenceHBY8Y
Community Visitor
Community Visitor

All, For HGLs capping at the top of pipe you need to change you have the analysis type set to "Kinematic Wave". Set it to "Hydrodynamic", you'll get the results you want. Input>Project Options>Link Routing Method>Hydrodynamic

 

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tedwardsFM4JE
Community Visitor
Community Visitor

Where is this option?

"Input>Project Options>Link Routing Method>Hydrodynamic"

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timothy.lawrenceHBY8Y
Community Visitor
Community Visitor
[cid:image001.png@01DB10BA.0495F6E0]
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tedwardsFM4JE
Community Visitor
Community Visitor

Image did not come through

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matt_anderson_pe
Collaborator
Collaborator

Setting the calculation to Dynamic or Hydrodynamic is an SSA issue, not a Hydraflow option.

Matthew Anderson, PE
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We use Terminus to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Terminus. Ads are based on both Terminus data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Terminus has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Terminus to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Terminus Privacy Policy
StackAdapt
We use StackAdapt to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by StackAdapt. Ads are based on both StackAdapt data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that StackAdapt has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to StackAdapt to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. StackAdapt Privacy Policy
The Trade Desk
We use The Trade Desk to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by The Trade Desk. Ads are based on both The Trade Desk data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that The Trade Desk has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to The Trade Desk to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. The Trade Desk Privacy Policy
RollWorks
We use RollWorks to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by RollWorks. Ads are based on both RollWorks data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that RollWorks has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to RollWorks to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. RollWorks Privacy Policy

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We can access your data only if you select "yes" for the categories on the previous screen. This lets us tailor our marketing so that it's more relevant for you. You can change your settings at any time by visiting our privacy statement

Your experience. Your choice.

We care about your privacy. The data we collect helps us understand how you use our products, what information you might be interested in, and what we can improve to make your engagement with Autodesk more rewarding.

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Explore the benefits of a customized experience by managing your privacy settings for this site or visit our Privacy Statement to learn more about your options.