C3D 2024 - Data shortcut structure properties are editable in reference drawing

[bdimenna]

I can change data shortcut structure properties and like rim and sump elevation in the reference drawing.  Is this the intended behavior?  You can't change any properties for pipes aside from which surface or alignment is referenced (for labeling purposes), but you can change structures tops and sumps? 

Why would I want to be able to do that?  And is there a way to reset structure to exactly match the source drawing?

Also, my end goal here is to be able to label an existing structure rim, and then also show a reference surface elevation at the structure insertion point.  Thereby showing if an existing structure rim needs to be raised or lowered to suit proposed grade changes.  I thought I would be able to label the structure rim, and then label the structure reference surface (pointed to an FG surface), but instead my whole structure moves when I change the reference surface.

[Mike.M.Carlson]

Interesting. I don’t think this is the intended behavior (editing outside the source file) since the “source” model dwg rules for any Datashortcut. I have just tested this scenario is v23 and actually see the same behavior. Meaning if I Datashortcut a Pipe Network into a XREF that has both EG and Proposed surfaces, I can change the DREF Structure Surface Reference from Proposed (which set the design RIM invert correctly in my source file) to be EG Surface in the XREF, which adjusts the RIM Elev! Really odd you can do this. Not sure why you would want this option in plan production. It should be locked down as read only like other DREFs.

**my end goal here is to be able to label an existing structure rim, and then also show a reference surface elevation at the structure insertion point. 

I played with structure label styles to see if you can label the EX RIM, but specify a new "reference" Surface if you want to label the Proposed Surface elevation...I did not see a label component that would allow this kind of functionality. Only Option I saw was "Reference Surface Name". And of course as we discuss above, if you change the reference surface, it will change the RIM elev so I do not recommend doing that.   

[Cadguru42]

Interesting. I thought if the reference surface was changed it just changed the label. It actually changes the "physical" RIM elevation of the structure in the DREF? Does the structure in profile change positions as well?

[rl_jackson]

Very interesting indeed! That shouldn't be happening as far as I know. You can change how the object looks via it's style but I've not seen the ability to modify the DR from the referenced file only in the source file.

[AllenJessup]

@lim.wendy You might want to get the development team's opinion on this. It doesn't look like something you would want to happen.

[lim.wendy]

Hi Allen, 

Thank you for bringing this to our attention! You're absolutely right; this doesn't seem like the intended behavior, I'll be looking into this issue right away.

[bdimenna]

Mike, thanks for confirming it's not just my machine. That actually makes me feel better, even though that means it's a more serious issue.

As for the label, I was trying to label the rim insertion elevation along with the reference surface elevation. I believe this should work provided the structure rim doesn't adjust when I changed the reference surface.

[bdimenna]

@Cadguru42, this is what I believed to be true as well.  To confirm, yes, the physical rim elevation and sump elevation are changing in the DREF and also updating in the profile view.  Those are the only two properties that are "unlocked" though.  By unlocked I mean:

• the rim seems to move along with the reference surface, and I can can change the surface adjustment value property, but I can't directly set a rim elevation or drag the structure with grips.
• I can change the sump depth property, but can't directly set the sump elevation or drag the structure with grips.

In my screen shot, I have just typed in the 1.00m adjustment and the structure adjusted and the greyed out rim elevation property adjusted correspondingly.

[bdimenna]

Wendy,

Just to provide some extra context...

I noticed this issue first while working on file that I took "offline" and therefore only had cached? local? pipe network data in the DREF drawing.  Putting the file back on the network, with the shortcuts available, the issue still remains.  I've checked this against other drawing files that I didn't do that with and they similarly.

In my source, I've tried setting automatic surface adjustment to False, and now the insertion rim elevation property is unlocked in my DREF file.  I can now freely adjust the rim elevation directly, but at least it's not tied to the currently set reference surface for the structure.  This seems to be my temporary work around path, along with making sure I don't accidentally adjust the rim or sump properties in the DREF because I still haven't found a way to reset it.

[lim.wendy]

Hi Brandon, all,

Thank you for bringing this issue to our attention on the forum. We appreciate your diligence in reporting it.

I wanted to let you know that I have logged a Problem Report with our development team regarding the issue you've mentioned.

I will keep a close eye on the developments from our development team, and as soon as I have any updates or more details to share, I will post them in this forum thread. If you have any further information or insights to add, please feel free to contribute to the discussion. Your collaboration will help us pinpoint and address the issue more effectively.

Once again, thank you for your contribution to improving our product. We are committed to delivering the best experience for our users, and your feedback is essential in achieving that goal.

If you have any questions or need further assistance, please don't hesitate to reach out.

[lim.wendy]

Hi all,

I wanted to provide you with an update on the reported issue that you brought to our attention. First and foremost, thank you again for taking the time to report this issue. 

The development team has confirmed the existence of the issue you reported. They have initiated the investigation process to identify the root cause and work on a resolution. However, I regret to inform you that, at this time, I am not able to share specific details about the fixes or updates that will be implemented.

I will continue to monitor the progress of this issue closely and provide updates as soon as there is significant progress or when we can share more information about the resolution. In the meantime, if you have any additional information or questions related to this issue, please feel free to share them, and I will do my best to assist you.

Thank you once again for your dedication to improving our platform and for being a valued member of our community.

[xiaoming.fei]

Hi @bdimenna ,

Thanks for reporting the issue. We have checked it.

• It is expected to override reference surface and alignment in Data Shortcuts Host drawing according to Help
• After overriding surface, if structure "Automatic surface adjustment" is true, then the structure height will be adjusted. The behavior is also consistent with that in source drawing.

We understand your requirement to annotate the different elevations of the surface and rim. Our suggestion is to change structure "Automatic surface adjustment" to false in source drawing if you want to keep the structure height no change. Since the existing behavior has been released for a long time and it is reasonable, probably more users would report it as a regression bug if we changed it.

At last, sorry for the late reply.

[bdimenna]

Thanks for the reply.

The Help documentation says I can override the surface and alignment in the reference drawing, thereby making it different then the host drawing.  My understanding then based on what you said is that if have auto adjustment turned on, I will be able to change the rim in the reference drawing and the structure would not be locked to being exactly as in the source drawing.  Conversely, I should then be able to turn of auto adjustment in the source drawing and thereby also "lock" the structure in the reference drawing.  I suppose this makes sense and I can think a few scenarios where this could be useful, but it doesn't explain why I can change the sump value as well.

However, no matter what structure settings I have in the host drawing, I can still change the rim and sump of the data shortcut structure in the reference drawing.  Even after synchronizing the network, the "overrides" in the reference drawing stay and I continue to have a mismatch between my model file and my sheet file.  There is no way to reset a referenced structure so that it matches the source drawing.

I'm still not seeing how this is the intended behavior.  It makes no sense to have a data shortcut that can be different then the source data.  If I shortcut an alignment, or profile, or surface, there is literally nothing I can change in the reference drawing except the style.

[xiaoming.fei]

Hi @bdimenna , yes , the sump depth should not be changed in the host drawing, it's a bug. 

"Conversely, I should then be able to turn of auto adjustment in the source drawing and thereby also "lock" the structure in the reference drawing." This makes sense, I will log a problem report and discuss it with team.

That's correct, Data shortcuts should keep objects geometry same with source drawing. But in gravity structure, the behavior is somehow different. The gravity network structure height can be changed and calculated by different surfaces in different construction stage. It comes from users' requirements before.

[Cadguru42]

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@xiaoming.fei wrote:

Hi @bdimenna , yes , the sump depth should not be changed in the host drawing, it's a bug. 

"Conversely, I should then be able to turn of auto adjustment in the source drawing and thereby also "lock" the structure in the reference drawing." This makes sense, I will log a problem report and discuss it with team.

That's correct, Data shortcuts should keep objects geometry same with source drawing. But in gravity structure, the behavior is somehow different. The gravity network structure height can be changed and calculated by different surfaces in different construction stage. It comes from users' requirements before.

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This is something I've never thought about doing. Changing the surface reference of an existing structure in a DREF for "different construction stage[s]" to be used. Was this always the intent by Autodesk? Was the idea to allow an existing manhole structure that's being adjusted to a new surface to stay in the same network, same name, and same pipe connections without having to create a new structure?

If sump heights/depths are also being adjusted in a DREF, does that mean connected pipes are also being adjusted? If the minimum vertical clearance is using the surface elevation (top) to do the calculations and in a DREF that surface changes, what happens to any pipes that have inverts that now violate the minimum vertical clearance?

This whole thing seems very strange to me and counter to what I thought the intent of data shortcuts were supposed to be.

[xiaoming.fei]

Got it, what you said makes sense. We will discuss how to improve it. Since the existing behavior has been released for a long time, and this is the first time we received this problem. If we directly changed the behavior in Civil 3D, probably regression issue would be reported.

Thanks all for your feedback. @Cadguru42 @bdimenna