C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

[Neilw_05]

It appears we can no longer create Point Clouds within Civil 3D as of 2018 release. The workflow now is to use Recap to create the cloud and then attach it to C3D. I tried to create a Point Cloud in Recap using the 3 Elevation formats available from the National Map (Grid, Float and IMG). None of these formats are supported in Recap. So what is the workflow to get the elevation data sets into C3D? I know we can add a grid file to a surface in C3D but we need to filter the data first to make the resulting surface usable. 

[ksorsby]

Let me give you an example. I’ve been in a meeting today where we’ve been trying to come up with a solution to a v. difficult highways design problem. We and the client team are doing realtime design in C3D with alignments/corridors/surfaces for optioneering. We have topo but a client question in the meeting was ‘can we extend 500m beyond the topo, what do the levels look like there?’. With point clouds no problem, pan over, take a look, quick surface of a small area, quick section. But I had to draw a dataclip, say excuse me while I import the asc to a surface, then use 2m contours because the regen times are awful. Dataclip area wasn’t quite right, so drag a grip. wait for regen, drag another grip, wait for regen etc. It was embarrassingly slow and I gritted my teeth.



I also can’t really say, ‘wait there for 5 minutes, I just need to open it up in recap, export to IW then export to C3D and reopen the model which already takes 5 minutes to open. This is much better you’ll understand. Autodesk said so’.



Some may say, this is what Infraworks is for. But IW is nowhere near being a design tool, from what I’ve seen. I wish it was, but it isn’t! It’s a massive shame Autodesk have crippled their own software.



Cheers,

[Kevin.Spear]

I agree, what you describe does sound like IW, especially from a road design perspective. For discussion purposes, when was the last time you looked at the feature set? I’m not sure if you think the latest version isn’t ready for primetime or maybe the 2015 version isn’t ready.

[Anonymous]

<Kevin> 

I appreciate the effort to remedy a solution to the larger problem.

The real solution is simple, put the ability back into C3D and give the user/manager the option to manage the data how they choose.

Autodesk has typically not removed things that work in the past. They have removed things that do not work.

Why remove something that has been adopted and works well?

I suggest we stop talking about band-aids and workarounds and go straight to the comp. enggs and put the ability back into the software.

I will continue to talk about it until we get results. 

Please put it back....

[TerryDotson]

... simple, put the ability back into C3D ...

If they intend to put it back, one would expect it to be in the 2019 release (next month).

[Anonymous]

Yes I don't remember the removal of things that work, to often, unless
to put in a new product to buy.   The removal of a working function for
my perpetual licensed version is the damage the removed feature has and
is costing me.  Removal of references to a point cloud I found requires
xblocking and creating layouts all over because of other feature
updates.    Makes me leery of updating to 2019, but I have been AutoDesk
based for over 34 years.  I remember version 13.0 when things did not
exist or were connected to so selecting a command did nothing.  At least
that improved, just had to have faith they would treat users fairly. 
Yet things change, last year I paid for a media copy, in August, and was
told in November 2017 that the 2018 version was not available, yet.  It
would be nice to be treated fairly and loss of features previously
purchased.

Things improve but still it is paper I need for engineering approval not
the animated sales features, but we are not using technical software but
entertainment software, now.

[Anonymous]

I have found data clip very useful along with the simplifying of the
surface to reduce the points used in my models.  It allows a lot of
flexibility for editing and tweaking surfaces to get better hydraulic
connections.

Nice link.

[ksorsby]

We reviewed it back in 2015 as it was part of IDSP then (I think, before they took it out).

The interface felt gamified, tools-light, also entirely US based (which is fine - if you're in the US). the link back to C3D broke a number of things regularly. We tried to run it in parallel with C3D on some projects with no time pressures and it just didn't cut the cheese, frankly.

I'm all for change when it's good but based on what we saw then, when compared to MX, PDS, 12D and OpenRoads, IW is not a design tool usable in the wild. C3D is though even on planning projects.

If someone can show me an IW with fully operational and compliant non-US packs which work, and seamlessly transfer design data to and from C3D dynamically with no hitches or roundtrips, I would consider it!

Infrastructure Design Suite Premium was touted by Autodesk a few years back as 'the future of design and creation' as 'one set of tools for design' except it turns out it's not, AEC is now the future of design and one set of tools for design.

Of course, this is only until 'Civil Architectural Creation Design Suite' comes in in 2021 containing 'one true set of tools' for engineers and architects alike. As it happens, corridor building and pipe networks will be taken out of C3D and be separate subscriber packages called 'TruCorridor' and '3DPipeFlow'. It'll be much easier to do corridors and pipes there though, just create your alignment and profile in C3D, send to TruCorridor which will build and output into Infraworks directly. If you need to adjust the design, just alter the profile in C3D then re-export to TruCorridor then Infraworks to view there.

Quicker than doing it in one place (caveat: profiles not supported in TruCorridor. Need to convert to VLines using Autodesk's new 'ReConvert' tool)

Cheers,

[ksorsby]

This. I too have used cad since v12 in 1992. Autodesk have always been cynical in terms of licensing but the confused direction and quality control at the moment leave a lot to be desired.

Another company familiar to us canned C3D last year and moved back to PDS, on the grounds of the broken windes link in 2017 and the point cloud removal. 

Cheers,

[Anonymous]

It would be nice to have a single set of tools.  I used Eaglepoint for
years since I could design a road with pipes underneath.  The tools
worked though not as linked, but that was in the 1990's.  C3D still is
not where an old Civil like me needs it to be for a very simple project.

[Anonymous]

Have Autodesk said anything about us not being able to create classified surfaces via the ReCap route?

ReCap can visually filter out points based on classifications, but the created .rcp-cloud still contains all points.

While in C3D, using the standard surface from .rcp funktion ignores any classification (all points are used for the surface).

The only way to do it is with MAPCREATEPCSURFACE. However this is an extra (unneccesary step) that creates a "dead" DEM-file.

Also, its only possible to create DEM-surfaces. TIN-surfaces from classified points clouds are no longer possible without 3rd party addons.

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/civil-3d-forum/point-cloud-classification-is-no-longer-supported-for-...

They seriously need to halt C3D 2020 production to fix this...

Cheers

[Kevin.Spear]

Hi Robert. Which version of C3D is your firm using? The tools you seek are in the matching version of Infraworks. Most people do not want to hear that. But that's the reality. It can build surfaces from classified data, build break lines from the cloud, etc. Give that a look and see if it meets your needs.

[TerryDotson]

... extra (unneccesary step) that creates a "dead" DEM-file.

If it's a .DEM file it also rounds your elevation to the nearest meter (integer).

[Anonymous]

Rally? I doubt it.

My issue with DEM surfaces is that some of the surface edit commands (smooth, raise lower, paste) doesnt work. Only for TIN-surfaces.

We use c3d 2018 with IW. Haven't tried using IW for point cloud classification.

Feels cumbersome, and isn't ReCap supposed to do that, since it's only job in this is the point cloud .

[Kevin.Spear]

Recap doesn't do any point cloud analysis. Those tools are being put in the respective applications. A c3d/iw surface TIN wouldn't apply to the mechanical industry any more than an inventor mesh would for civil folks. Recap is built to register, relayer (or region), and index point cloud data. Unless your point cloud hardware has a specific software plugin, Recap is the only means to get this data into AutoCAD, Inventor, Revit, etc.

[Anonymous]

To bad Recap cost extra as the free version is only valid if you use
often to keep the updated installed.  It is another enhancement that
removes features that worked and were paid for.

seems the inventor mesh would be handy for a couple of things done that
require mesh creation to use free government software to model 3D flows.

[kiarianc]

Have to say after going through tutorials using the book 'Mastering AutoCAD Civil 3d 2016' and reading this post, I cannot believe that in 2021 this process is a lot more convoluted and inefficient than the 2016 version of Civil 3D. It's taking me 30 minutes to figure out that the point cloud function does not exist in the Prospector (I thought maybe my student version just didn't have the permission).
I'm now trying the process of importing a LAS file into Houdini, to then import into Civil 3D. Groan..... I can't imagine what the people renting out this software for £3000 a year must be thinking.

[ramesh_sridharan]

@kiarianc Users can convert las (or laz or pts to many other formats) to Autodesk RCS/RCP using Autodesk Recap product. If users have collections, Recap is already part of the collections to use. If not, the free version of Recap can do this conversion as well. There is no need to jump to any other product for this workflow. Hope this helps.

[kiarianc]

@ramesh_sridharan But that is my point. I now have to come out of Civil 3D, spend time in Recap, export or convert files in Recap, then come back into Civil 3D to insert as a Point Cloud. Before (if I were doing this pre 2018 going by information I've read on this thread), I could go on Prospector-Point Cloud and then import the LAS files. 

[sfore]

Recap is a much better engine to handle point cloud data. I understand your frustration and at first I didn't like having to use another program just to process a cloud file either, but after using Recap a few times, I was sold.

[Anonymous]

I can agree that ReCap has a better 3d-engine. My problem is that ReCap has 1 % of the features needed to properly manage and edit point clouds.

Selection and cropping is done only "by hand" - there's no way to import shapefiles or even cad polygons to limit your area of interest... When working on 5km long road corridors we can just forget about this software.