As-builts (Record Drawings)

[Anonymous]

How are you handling as-builts? Do you copy your design files and edit the
objects to make true as-built models? Do you just markup the annotation? How
about surfaces and design profiles, do you update the models for those as
well? Having true models makes for easier annotation but it can also mean
more work to build the models. It seems that no matter how you look at it
the process gets messy and/or tedious.

Any recommendations for sources on this topic would be appreciated.

[Anonymous]

It is a good question that really can only be answered by determining
the purpose of the as-builts. In many cases, the required utility
as-builts require us to show design and as-built distances and slopes.
In that case, we xref'd the design drawing, data shortcuted, promoted
and editted the pipe network for the labels.

As-built grading results in a final record surface model and labels.

Why would you update design profiles? or a corridor model?

Matthew Anderson, PE



neilw wrote:
> How are you handling as-builts? Do you copy your design files and edit the
> objects to make true as-built models? Do you just markup the annotation? How
> about surfaces and design profiles, do you update the models for those as
> well? Having true models makes for easier annotation but it can also mean
> more work to build the models. It seems that no matter how you look at it
> the process gets messy and/or tedious.
>
> Any recommendations for sources on this topic would be appreciated.
>

[Anonymous]

Well if sewer locations and elevations and spot elevations are dereived from
the models it would make sense to update the models to get the annotation to
update to as-built conditions. Otherwise we either have to explode the
labels and edit them or create new pieces of text. By editing the profiles
and updating the corridor the rest would follow dyanmically. That is how I
am envisioning the workflow. Since I have not gone that far with a project
yet I'm wanting to get some ideas on how others handle it.



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[BrianHailey]

> {quote:title=Guest wrote:}{quote}
> Otherwise we either have to explode the labels and edit them or create new pieces of text.

Ouch! Just select the label, right click, edit label text. Or if, you are using the ribbon, select the text and choose edit label text on the ribbon.

Brian Hailey
http://www.cad-1.com
http://www.AtYourDeskTraining.com
http://Civil3DPlus.wordpress.com

[Sinc]

The only ones I've ever seen who want the original plans updated to "Record Drawings" are the Army Corps jobs. Asbuilts can take a lot of time for those jobs.

For most jobs, when we do Asbuilts, we create reports or exhibits (usually both) showing field asbuilt shots, and the difference between field and design. So far, that sort of thing has been sufficient for pretty much every other job we've done. And for stuff like that, we often use the Sincpac-C3D dynamic links to link Cogo Points to the design elements, and the difference between asbuilt and design is calculated automatically, and can be placed in things like Station/Offset tables in C3D. This means we can generally whip out asbuilts pretty fast, and generally don't spend a lot of time on them.

-- Sinc
http://www.ejsurveying.com
http://www.quuxsoft.com

[Anonymous]

We model the as-builts because we are required to show contours & spot
elevations. We use our designs files to start but we shoot everything built
and model only what was built or disturbed. Most times we are shooting
roads that have no top coat so manholes & inlets are typically not in the
surface model but will show on the plans. We do not need profiles for our
as-builts. For our pipe networks, we bring in the design with data
shortcuts, promote & edit the network with the as-built data.

Generally speaking we do revise & supplement copies of the design files. We
only model what needs to be modeled.

--
John Mayo, PE

Core i7 920 6GB DDR3
Radeon 4870HD 1 GB
Vista64

[Anonymous]

I can see there are a lot of possibilities depending on what is required, so
this thread could be a big time waster.

I do think that just displaying the surveyed points will suffice for spot
elevations. There rest is mainly editing structure and pipe elevations to
get as-built pipe networks.

Neil



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[Anonymous]

Our current practice is to leave the model as is and strike out the station, offset, rim or invert elevations and show the actual location/ elevation in bold italicised text. If the location changes by enough to drastically affect lengths/elevations we draw in dumb lines to show correct location. Minor changes in profile as noted with strike-outs and correct elevations. Major changes are shown by adding a new profile in the changed area with italicised elevation text. Our state DOT is in the process of switching from microstation/caice to Autodesk Civil3d so we're waiting to see their record drawing requirements as that may affect how we do them for all clients.

[Anonymous]

You bet Neil. I would think (and hope) the as-built for an interstate
highway would require a bit more attention than a parking lot expansion on
Main St.

--
John Mayo, PE

Core i7 920 6GB DDR3
Radeon 4870HD 1 GB
Vista64

[nostupidquestions]

we copy our design drawings and slap 'asbuilt' in the title block. the engineer goes out and inspects the site and takes some photos and that's it. fortunately no one wants an actual dwg file, just paper drawings. the water management district is wanting designed and asbuilt in the same drawing which seems like it would be crowded and hard to read. i don't know why we aren't required to have an asbuilt survey. if i was an engineer i think i would require it or at least get some pond and invert shots.

[Anonymous]

Money, money, money, or rather NO money left by the time you need to document the construction. No one wants to pay for it!

[Anonymous]

Hi Neil,

Whether an As-built plan is of any value needs some assessment.

If there is a significant change in the As built from the design, on a
well managed project that change will have occurred as a result of a
change document.

If there are changes due to work being more or less within construction
tolerances, the question should arise is there any value in documenting
those changes.

Some points to consider:
Pipe inverts: Mostly used for flooding analysis when the are under
pressure flow and the inverts have almost no effect on the flow regime.
Pavement levels, kerb levels etc.: Depending on soil/climate conditions
can move with time in excess of 100mm. If on deep fill may move even
further.
Time and trust issues:
You are given an as built plan from a 20 year old project. You've never
heard of the company that prepared the plan. Would you stake your
design on that plan without any form of field survey?
You are given an as built plan from a 20 year old project. You've heard
of the company that prepared the plan and that they went into
liquidation 19 years ago. Would you stake your design on that plan
without any form of field survey?
You are given an as built plan from a 20 year old project. You've heard
of the company that prepared the plan. In fact, you as a junior worker
prepared the as-built in the week before you got married. Would you
stake your design on that plan without any form of field survey?
Your new project is to be built by humans who can adjust to minor
changes on the ground.
Your new project is to be built by automated machinery which will build
pedantically to the design surface model.

My overall summary of them is that for Civil work they would rarely be
worth the paper they are plotted on.


Regards,


Laurie Comerford



neilw wrote:
> How are you handling as-builts? Do you copy your design files and edit the
> objects to make true as-built models? Do you just markup the annotation? How
> about surfaces and design profiles, do you update the models for those as
> well? Having true models makes for easier annotation but it can also mean
> more work to build the models. It seems that no matter how you look at it
> the process gets messy and/or tedious.
>
> Any recommendations for sources on this topic would be appreciated.
>

[Anonymous]

Very true Laurie but just to add to all of the bureaucracy, most towns
around here will not issue a Certificate of Occupancy or release
construction bonds without an as-built drawing approved by the municipal
engineer.

--
John Mayo, PE

Core i7 920 6GB DDR3
Radeon 4870HD 1 GB
Vista64

[Anonymous]

I agree with your assesment Laurie. However I don't get to have my way in
this regard so we have to produce the documents. It is a royal PITA.

One of the challenges I have been facing is this is a fairly large project.
As-built surveying has been done somewhat piecemeal as work is partially
completed and the documents have been updated as the data comes in. When I
come into the as-built drawings I have no way to know what has been reviewed
and what has not, because the only places where there is evidence is when
there was a deviation from the design. The rest of the design may have been
reviewed and is in compliance but I have no way to know that, so my only
recourse is to go through it all again.

To overcome this problem I am moving the linework to s-built layers after
reviewing and verifying it so that anyone at any time can determine what has
been verified and what needs to be completed. The downside is this requires
considerably more work than just doing markups, but I can see no other
effective ways to deal with it.

This is a LDT project so there are no C3D objects involved. This problem
would not as redily handled if we were updating C3D pipe structures in a
piecemeal fashion such is this. Perhaps a markup would have to be applied to
each node when it was updated.

[AllenJessup]

One thing I have not managed to convince them of here is that for a County Road project in the suburban NYC area is that we should have the road & structures SURVEYED for the As-Builts. All they do here is to copy the CAD Drawings and use the inspectors notes to add Revclouds with notes on field changes. IMHO a bad way to do it.
Allen

[Anonymous]

Hi John and Neil,

Yes. It's a political problem.

When we get rules written by ignorant politicians and /or bureaucrats on
the grounds that they wish to be seen to be doing something, regardless
of whether that "something" adds to the problem or solves it.

As a profession, engineers have failed to act politically in the
interests of the community. As a whole, we do not have the political
skills to do this. Engineers are far more likely than average to let
the truth dictate their actions and that doesn't always work well in
politics.

On the specific problem, in Civil 3D, you could probably design an
"Upgrade" general note style.

In Land Desktop (keeping in mind that this requires Land Desktop as the
working environment), I once had a client who was planning an electronic
maintenance environment for a golf course project.

We added Land Desktop "Notes" to point object blocks (added via the
description keys process).
Within the Notes the user could add photos, dates on inspections, repair
notes etc.


Regards,


Laurie Comerford

neilw wrote:
> I agree with your assesment Laurie. However I don't get to have my way in
> this regard so we have to produce the documents. It is a royal PITA.
>
> One of the challenges I have been facing is this is a fairly large project.
> As-built surveying has been done somewhat piecemeal as work is partially
> completed and the documents have been updated as the data comes in. When I
> come into the as-built drawings I have no way to know what has been reviewed
> and what has not, because the only places where there is evidence is when
> there was a deviation from the design. The rest of the design may have been
> reviewed and is in compliance but I have no way to know that, so my only
> recourse is to go through it all again.
>
> To overcome this problem I am moving the linework to s-built layers after
> reviewing and verifying it so that anyone at any time can determine what has
> been verified and what needs to be completed. The downside is this requires
> considerably more work than just doing markups, but I can see no other
> effective ways to deal with it.
>
> This is a LDT project so there are no C3D objects involved. This problem
> would not as redily handled if we were updating C3D pipe structures in a
> piecemeal fashion such is this. Perhaps a markup would have to be applied to
> each node when it was updated.
>

[Anonymous]

We looked at using a note system but decided it is not as effective as
re-layering linework. The reason being that notes don't work well when there
are a conglomeration of entities that can have varying status, nor do they
work well for extensive runs of pipes, etc.

For example there may be valves, hydrants, manholes, etc. all clustered
together. Some of them could be verified and some may not. To cover the
variations with notes would be messy. Likewise pipes may be verified along
long stretches. To cover those lengths with notes would require either using
clouds or several notes along the run or perhaps some station ranges. I find
it easier and less prone to misinterpretation to just put the lines and
symbols that are verified on appropriate as-built layers. This has worked
well for us so far.

[Anonymous]

This just came up in our office. Our municipality makes us dimension everything. Meaning we must have two dimensions to all above ground appurtenances (supposedly so they can chain and find them should they be covered or damaged). We also have to provide an updated CAD file for their GIS systems.

On top of all of that, they want to see the difference between design and what was built. Our solution is to provide the survey file for the GIS information, strike through our design information (using a style with lines added) and use mtext to input the built data, and finally dimension to the surveyed data (even if it doesn't line up exactly to the design data). We don't move or edit our actual design, just make text changes.

If anyone else has a better solution, please post. Trying to get our standards nailed down.

Thanks,

-Tucker

[Anonymous]

Good morning,

I am looking for a 'As Builts' drawing expert, who is looking for some freelance work in KUWAIT.

The as builts required are for a Fast food restaurant, which will consist of Electricals and HAVAC.

if interested, please call me on:  +965 9677 2996

Regards,

Carl