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Co2 level in a naturally ventilated class room

Anonymous

Co2 level in a naturally ventilated class room

Anonymous
Not applicable

Dear CFD users and experts,

I am trying to model a the Co2 level and thermal comfort for a classroom using a stationary model. The natural air flow depends on temperature difference (outdoor temperature = 5°C, indoor temperature = 22°C). The class room dimensions is 8 x 10 x 3 m . The inlet air has scalar 0 (air density = 1.2 Kg/m3) and the students generate scalar 1 (Co2 density = 1.773 kg/m3) There is 2 problems:

1-The simulation lasts too long in general for such a small room0.PNG1.PNG

2-The resulting wind velocity is too high for a model that depends only on temperature difference (no volume rate flow,  velocity or temperature assigned to boundary conditions)

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Replies (14)

frederic.gaillard.7
Advisor
Advisor

Hello Karim, 

There is few thing that are not setted properly. 

First and foremost you can not have internal boundary condition : 

  1. Temperature BC 
  2. 0.31l/min and scalar(1)

These BC are the most problematic, they need to be removed or the mesh has to be suppressed. For the case of your inlet, removing them are not an option so the mesh need to be removed. 

Capture1.JPG

 

Can you explain the purpose of this big box of luft ?  Is this a kind of inlet ?

Capture.JPG
THX

Fred

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Anonymous
Not applicable

Hi Fred,

Thanks for your reply. This big box represents the outdoor air, which goes into the room through the windows drived by temperature difference. So, when I supress the tiny boxes that represent the breathing mouthes, they will nit be calculated in mesh but they will still produce co2 (volume flow rate for scalar 1) ?

 

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frederic.gaillard.7
Advisor
Advisor
Accepted solution

Hello Karim, 

Yes, they will ! See by yourself : 
Capture.JPG

Hope it helps

Fred

Anonymous
Not applicable

Thanks so much 🙂

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frederic.gaillard.7
Advisor
Advisor

Hello Karim, 

let me know how the simulation goes. They are still issues with your model but this minor change will significatively improve your result. 

Fred

 

Anonymous
Not applicable

Hello Fred,

Actually your advices helped a lot. Now the simulation took only 949 iterations, as before it didn't stop. I removed the temperature boundary conditions from the interior walls and added convection to the external surfaces. The thing is that I am very suspicious about the air velocity and temperature values. Simply what I want to do is to analyze heat transfer between outdoor (5 degree celsius) and indoor(22 degree celsius) and evaluate the co2 ppm levels in classroom, so how can I fix this indoor temperature without adding boundary conditions to the interior surface ? I added film coefficient and for exterior surfaces as well as 3 heaters (3500 W each). but still the temperature in room is not homogenous around the 22 degree celsius ! also the warm air doesn't flow upwards from the bodies of students. I apologize for the long reply but can you write me briefly the issues with this model.

Best Regards

Karim

2.PNGvelocityvelocitytemperaturetemperature

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frederic.gaillard.7
Advisor
Advisor

Hello Karim, 

You still have internal BC. I think this scenario need thermal initial condition based on your objective. 

I will keep you posted.  

 

Capture.JPG

Fred

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Anonymous
Not applicable

Hi Fred,

I am really thankful for your constabt support. I just want to clear 1 point: this "Luft" box resembles the outside air. so this surface is the exterior wall of the room. actually this room doesn't have an outlet and inlet. It has only windows on one side for the inflow as well as outflow. Which boundary conditions you think I have to add to this outside air box if the flow depends only on the temperature difference (in room = 22 deg celcius and out = 5 deg celsius). also please tell me if I should have modeled the outside air in a different way in CAD.

Best Regards

frederic.gaillard.7
Advisor
Advisor
Accepted solution

Hello Karim, 

I was able to proprely set the temperature in both environment using thermal initial condition. However this imply that the scenario must be run in a transient mode. You can change this parameter in the solver tab under the solution mode.temperature distributiontemperature distribution

 

I made minor change to your scenario : 

  1. Disable the scalar 
    • Once the flow & thermal solution will be correctly resolve i suggest to turn on again the scalar. 
  2. Add an initial temperature of 37degC to humain body
    • I add this temperature to quiclky have an overview of the termal diffusion. it can be removed if it does not suit your objectives.
  3. Supress concrete wall from the mesh 
    • if there any heat loss through the classroom wall ?
  4. refine mesh near the open window
  5. switch to transient mode

 

Fred

 

Anonymous
Not applicable

Wow That's great. I have really learned a lot in this example as I was before always confused !

regarding this part " Once the flow & thermal solution will be correctly resolve i suggest to turn on again the scalar": Do you mean I run the simulation again from the beginning with the scalar on ? or to turn on the scalar and continue the simulation for more ex. 1000 iterations ?

Best Regards

Karim

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frederic.gaillard.7
Advisor
Advisor

Hello Karim, 

i'm glad to hear that you make progress. 

Regarding the scalar, since your simulation is transient it will be wise to run the simulation again, from t=0sec. 

I ask you to turn off scalar simply for the purpose of helping you. It is generally a faster path to succes when you gradually add layer of complexity. 

I add some video of the evolution of the temperature for the first 15min inside the classroom. You don't have strong velocity field, so the TimeStepSize can be higher than 1s and the mesh does not had to be too fine as well. 

How your simulation goes on your end ? 

Fred

Anonymous
Not applicable

Hi Fred,

I am sorry, can you save it in 2018 version please, as it doesn't want to open since yesterday.

Best Regards

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frederic.gaillard.7
Advisor
Advisor
Accepted solution

Hello Karim,
i'm not sure if i can save it in a 2018 format... i will give you the big line here : 

  1. Boudary Condition 
    1. Capture.JPG
    2. The most important BC for your model are located at the top of the ''cold outside'' I apply a thermal BC where T=5degC and and opening where P=0. This configuration will allow you a constant air flow at 5degC. I recommand to read the modeling strategy to have a good understanding. 
    3. Set the other BC as you did in the past. 
  2. Initial Condition 
    1. Capture1.JPG
    2. Assign a 22degC to the air volume of your classroom. Wall and human can have a different temperature. In my previous example i applied 37degC to the humain. 
  3. Mesh 
    1. Capture2.JPGCapture4.JPG
    2. make sur that the surrounding of the heated body are well meshed. The common wall and the tiny opening of the window need more mesh as well. 
  4. Solver Setting
    1. Capture5.JPG
    2. Switch to transient solution mode, choose a TimeStepSize. 

 

I hope it help 

Fred

Anonymous
Not applicable

Hi Fred,

the temperature and velocity simulations went well as you can see 210125_Tempratur.PNG210125_Velocity.PNGWhen adding the scalar it didn't affect the velocity and temperature but the co2 falls always on the ground, as if it is not mixed with air in one material. Here you find the result on an evaluation level from 0 till ppm as well as my input settings found on the Autodesf CFD Scalar

210125_Co2-0till5000ppm.PNGAir-Co2.PNGAir-Co2_2.PNG

Again, your efforts are really appreciated.

Regards

Karim

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We use Hotjar to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Hotjar. Ads are based on both Hotjar data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Hotjar has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Hotjar to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Hotjar Privacy Policy
6 Sense
We use 6 Sense to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by 6 Sense. Ads are based on both 6 Sense data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that 6 Sense has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to 6 Sense to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. 6 Sense Privacy Policy
Terminus
We use Terminus to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Terminus. Ads are based on both Terminus data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Terminus has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Terminus to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Terminus Privacy Policy
StackAdapt
We use StackAdapt to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by StackAdapt. Ads are based on both StackAdapt data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that StackAdapt has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to StackAdapt to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. StackAdapt Privacy Policy
The Trade Desk
We use The Trade Desk to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by The Trade Desk. Ads are based on both The Trade Desk data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that The Trade Desk has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to The Trade Desk to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. The Trade Desk Privacy Policy
RollWorks
We use RollWorks to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by RollWorks. Ads are based on both RollWorks data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that RollWorks has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to RollWorks to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. RollWorks Privacy Policy

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We care about your privacy. The data we collect helps us understand how you use our products, what information you might be interested in, and what we can improve to make your engagement with Autodesk more rewarding.

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