Incorrect position of bolt set for arangement of wafer type valve, loose flanges and welding neck collar without gasket

[doleischLG4UV]

Hello everyone,

if I want to insert a wafer type valve with loose flanges into a pipeline and configure that no gasket is to be placed, as the fitting already has a built-in gasket, the bolt set is inserted in the wrong place, as can be seen in the following picture. The position of the bolt set is also shown incorrectly on the isometric drawing.

As soon as the use of a gasket is defined for the wafer type flange connection, the bolt set is placed correctly.

How can I prevent the bolt set from being inserted incorrectly for the desired connection without using a gasket?

Kind regards

[h_eger]

Dear @doleischLG4UV ,

as we cannot foresee the future, it is really very difficult to give you an answer to your question as we do not have your Plant 3D configuration, how the connection manager is set and how your components are configured with the end connections.

[doleischLG4UV]

Dear Hartmut,

thank you for your reply. You are right, I could have gone into more detail about the used end codes and the  configuration of the connections.

The connection properties of the components I used are as follows.

Wafer Type Valve, S1 and S2:

Loose flanges, S1:

Loose flanges, S2:

Welding neck collar, S1:

Welding neck collar, S2:

Bolt set: 

It is an almost unchanged metric Plant 3D project (Version 2024). Only the connection settings have been adjusted as follows.

Flanged:

    <Joint Name="Flanged">
      <IsImperialMetric>false</IsImperialMetric>
      <OffsetTolerance>0</OffsetTolerance>
      <SlopeTolerance>0.1</SlopeTolerance>
      <FittingElements />
      <JointElements>
        <JointElement PartType="Gasket">
          <Queries />
          <PortOut>S2</PortOut>
          <PortIn>S1</PortIn>
          <Filter>(NominalDiameter=E1.NominalDiameter OR NominalDiameter=E2.NominalDiameter) AND (Facing=E1.Facing OR Facing=E2.Facing) AND PressureClass=E1.PressureClass</Filter>
        </JointElement>
        <JointElement PartType="BoltSet">
          <Queries />
          <PortOut />
          <PortIn />
          <Filter>(NominalDiameter=E1.NominalDiameter OR NominalDiameter=E2.NominalDiameter) AND IsLugSet=0 AND (Facing=E1.Facing OR Facing=E2.Facing) AND PressureClass=E1.PressureClass</Filter>
        </JointElement>
      </JointElements>
      <OptionalMatchCondition />
      <MatchCondition>E1.NominalDiameter=E2.NominalDiameter AND E1.PressureClass=E2.PressureClass AND ((E1.Facing IN ('FF', 'RF') AND E2.Facing IN ('FF', 'RF')) OR E1.Facing=E2.Facing)</MatchCondition>
      <PartTypes2 />
      <PartTypes1 />
      <EndConditions2>
        <EndCondition>FL</EndCondition>
        <EndCondition>LFL</EndCondition>
      </EndConditions2>
      <EndConditions1>
        <EndCondition>FL</EndCondition>
        <EndCondition>LFL</EndCondition>
      </EndConditions1>
      <Description>Flanschverbindung</Description>
    </Joint>

MixedFlanged:

    <Joint Name="MixedFlanged">
      <IsImperialMetric>true</IsImperialMetric>
      <OffsetTolerance>0</OffsetTolerance>
      <SlopeTolerance>0.1</SlopeTolerance>
      <FittingElements />
      <JointElements>
        <JointElement PartType="Gasket">
          <Queries />
          <PortOut>S2</PortOut>
          <PortIn>S1</PortIn>
          <Filter>(NominalDiameter=E1.NominalDiameter OR NominalDiameter=E2.NominalDiameter) AND (Facing=E1.Facing OR Facing=E2.Facing) AND PressureClass=E1.PressureClass</Filter>
        </JointElement>
        <JointElement PartType="BoltSet">
          <Queries />
          <PortOut />
          <PortIn />
          <Filter>(NominalDiameter=E1.NominalDiameter OR NominalDiameter=E2.NominalDiameter) AND IsLugSet=0 AND (Facing=E1.Facing OR Facing=E2.Facing) AND PressureClass=E1.PressureClass</Filter>
        </JointElement>
      </JointElements>
      <OptionalMatchCondition />
      <MatchCondition>E1.NominalDiameter=E2.NominalDiameter AND E1.PressureClass=E2.PressureClass AND ((E1.Facing IN ('FF', 'RF') AND E2.Facing IN ('FF', 'RF')) OR E1.Facing=E2.Facing)</MatchCondition>
      <PartTypes2 />
      <PartTypes1 />
      <EndConditions2>
        <EndCondition>FL</EndCondition>
        <EndCondition>LFL</EndCondition>
      </EndConditions2>
      <EndConditions1>
        <EndCondition>FL</EndCondition>
        <EndCondition>LFL</EndCondition>
      </EndConditions1>
      <Description>Flanschverbindung IM</Description>
    </Joint>

MixedWaferFlanged:

    <Joint Name="MixedWaferFlanged">
      <IsImperialMetric>true</IsImperialMetric>
      <OffsetTolerance>0</OffsetTolerance>
      <SlopeTolerance>0.1</SlopeTolerance>
      <FittingElements />
      <JointElements />
      <OptionalMatchCondition />
      <MatchCondition>E1.NominalDiameter=E2.NominalDiameter AND E1.PressureClass=E2.PressureClass AND ((E1.Facing IN ('FF', 'RF') AND E2.Facing IN ('FF', 'RF')) OR E1.Facing=E2.Facing)</MatchCondition>
      <PartTypes2 />
      <PartTypes1 />
      <EndConditions2>
        <EndCondition>FL</EndCondition>
        <EndCondition>WF</EndCondition>
      </EndConditions2>
      <EndConditions1>
        <EndCondition>FL</EndCondition>
        <EndCondition>LFL</EndCondition>
        <EndCondition>WF</EndCondition>
      </EndConditions1>
      <Description>Zwischenflansch IM</Description>
    </Joint>

StubLapped:

    <Joint Name="StubLapped">
      <IsImperialMetric>false</IsImperialMetric>
      <OffsetTolerance>0</OffsetTolerance>
      <SlopeTolerance>0.1</SlopeTolerance>
      <FittingElements />
      <JointElements>
        <JointElement PartType="Buttweld">
          <Queries />
          <PortOut />
          <PortIn />
          <Filter />
        </JointElement>
        <JointElement PartType="StubEnd">
          <Queries />
          <PortOut>S2</PortOut>
          <PortIn>S1</PortIn>
          <Filter>NominalDiameter=E1.NominalDiameter OR NominalDiameter=E2.NominalDiameter</Filter>
        </JointElement>
      </JointElements>
      <OptionalMatchCondition />
      <MatchCondition>E1.NominalDiameter=E2.NominalDiameter</MatchCondition>
      <PartTypes2 />
      <PartTypes1 />
      <EndConditions2>
        <EndCondition>BV</EndCondition>
        <EndCondition>PL</EndCondition>
      </EndConditions2>
      <EndConditions1>
        <EndCondition>LAP</EndCondition>
      </EndConditions1>
      <Description>Stutzen-Überlappverbindung</Description>
    </Joint>

AutoFlange:

    <Joint Name="AutoFlange">
      <IsImperialMetric>false</IsImperialMetric>
      <OffsetTolerance>0</OffsetTolerance>
      <SlopeTolerance>0.1</SlopeTolerance>
      <FittingElements>
        <FittingElement PartType="Flange">
          <Queries />
          <PortOut>S2</PortOut>
          <PortIn>S1</PortIn>
          <Filter>C1.NominalDiameter=E1.NominalDiameter AND C2.NominalDiameter=E2.NominalDiameter AND C1.Facing=E1.Facing AND C1.EndType='FL' AND C1.PressureClass=E1.PressureClass</Filter>
        </FittingElement>
      </FittingElements>
      <JointElements />
      <OptionalMatchCondition />
      <MatchCondition />
      <PartTypes2 />
      <PartTypes1 />
      <EndConditions2>
        <EndCondition>BV</EndCondition>
        <EndCondition>PL</EndCondition>
        <EndCondition>Universal_ET</EndCondition>
      </EndConditions2>
      <EndConditions1>
        <EndCondition>FL</EndCondition>
        <EndCondition>LUG</EndCondition>
        <EndCondition>WF</EndCondition>
      </EndConditions1>
      <Description>Auto-Flanschverbindung</Description>
    </Joint>

MixedAutoFlange:

    <Joint Name="MixedAutoFlange">
      <IsImperialMetric>true</IsImperialMetric>
      <OffsetTolerance>0</OffsetTolerance>
      <SlopeTolerance>0.1</SlopeTolerance>
      <FittingElements>
        <FittingElement PartType="Flange">
          <Queries />
          <PortOut>S2</PortOut>
          <PortIn>S1</PortIn>
          <Filter>NominalDiameter=E1.NominalDiameter</Filter>
        </FittingElement>
      </FittingElements>
      <JointElements />
      <OptionalMatchCondition />
      <MatchCondition />
      <PartTypes2 />
      <PartTypes1 />
      <EndConditions2>
        <EndCondition>BV</EndCondition>
        <EndCondition>PL</EndCondition>
        <EndCondition>Universal_ET</EndCondition>
      </EndConditions2>
      <EndConditions1>
        <EndCondition>FL</EndCondition>
        <EndCondition>LUG</EndCondition>
        <EndCondition>WF</EndCondition>
      </EndConditions1>
      <Description>Britisch-metrische Verbindung automatisch mit Flansch versehen</Description>
    </Joint>

Can you already do something with this information?

Kind regards

[h_eger]

Hallo @doleischLG4UV ,

Welding neck collar S2 "PL_SW" is not defined in the connection manager!

[doleischLG4UV]

Hello Hartmut,
it is of course absolutely correct that the endcode "PL_SW" is not a standard configuration.

However, this is not the reason why the bolt set is not placed at the other end of the welding neck.

Even if I use a welding neck collar with the standard endcodes "PL" or "PPL" at the welding end (see picture below), the bolt set is placed in the wrong position.

Kind Regards

[h_eger]

Hallo @doleischLG4UV ,

Is this behaviour also present in a new project?
It is getting more and more difficult to find the error because we can neither test with standard pipe specs nor with your configuration of the Plant 3D project

[doleischLG4UV]

Hello Hartmut,

i have now created a new standard project without using a user-defined project template (Metric, Millimeter, DIN, SQLite).

In this project, I have unchecked the box for setting the gasket in the connection definition for the WaferFlanged connection (see following image).

Then I removed all flanges except the loose flanges (Flange C DIN 2642 and Flange C DIN 2673) in the supplied pipe spec 10HC01.

If I now install a fitting with WF connections, loose flanges and "Welding neck border for lapped flange" are automatically used.

The bolt set, which is automatically set by the program without being defined in the connection setting, is also set to the wrong position as in my user-defined project described at the beginning.

While it is not so important for me in the 3D model, this has the effect on the isometric drawing that the bolt set is not labeled together with the flange, but that a separate label is set. 

In addition, the isometry (for pipe, flange connection, fitting, flange connection, pipe) is split into 3 sheets, i.e. separated at the point between flange and fitting (Quick-ISO, ISO Style: Check_A2).

I hope I'm not the first person to use Plant 3D to install an intermediate flange fitting without additional gaskets with loose flanges.

Is there a way to get a nice isometric drawing for this setting?

Thank you

[h_eger]

I think this is a case for Autodesk support.

[doleischLG4UV]

Hello Hartmut,

I have contacted Autodesk support regarding this matter.

The answer from support was:

"This is an already known behaviour of AutoCAD Plant 3D that has been informed to the Development Team, and a ticket has been logged with them for revision. Basically, the wafer connections do not work well if the gasket is removed, the bolt set is misplaced in the 3D Model and the isometric output is split into several drawings.

The workflow now is that a Developer will work on this ticket and this behavior might be revised in the next product updates or releases. I cannot precise when it will be implemented but I will let you know if I hear any updates regarding this ticket.

I am sorry that we could not attend to all your expectations at the moment. The best alternative now would be to keep the gasket in the connection but set it to have Status "Existing". 

Once set to "Existing", the gaskets will not be represented in isometrics nor listed in the Bill Of Material."

Of course, it is possible to work with dummy gaskets and set their status to "Existing". For the user, however, this is a greater effort and a source of error.

Nevertheless, thank you for your answers regarding this problem.
Kind regards

---

[h_eger]

That is not good. I can say for myself that I have never experienced this phenomenon and I hope it stays that way.
I can only wish you good luck for the future with Plnat 3D 😉

[sten.schmidt]

Hi.

I have a workaround for this issue.

Exchange the lapjoint with a weldneck and then back to lapjoint again.

Then the bolts will be at the right place.

/SS