How to draw a circle tangent to two lines, trough two specific points?

How to draw a circle tangent to two lines, trough two specific points?

Anonymous
Not applicable
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Message 1 of 18

How to draw a circle tangent to two lines, trough two specific points?

Anonymous
Not applicable

Hi!

I've had this problem for a while and can't seem to figure it out myself, so here goes:

I have two lines and need a circle tangent to both, but only to one point of each line. If I've got it correctly there should only be one solution to the problem no matter the lines or their angles or so on.

Thanks in advance!

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Accepted solutions (3)
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Replies (17)
Message 2 of 18

imadHabash
Mentor
Mentor

Hi,

I suggest to try Geometric constraints which control the relationships of objects with respect to each other .

 

Imad Habash

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Message 3 of 18

parkr4st
Advisor
Advisor

post the lines and diameter of the circle

parallel lines have infinite solutions   but one diameter circle

crossing lines have multiple solutions   i.e.  if lines make an X   four solutions for any diameter circle  many solutions with varying diameters

lines make a V  one solution per diameter = infinite solutions

non-parallel non-intersecting lines one solution per diameter   infinite diameters = equal many solutions.

 

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Message 4 of 18

Anonymous
Not applicable

Here are the lines in question:

Lines.dwg is both lines with the tangent points marked.
Lines2.dwg is somewhat the intended result, but with intersections.

I don't have the radius of the circle or any other variable.

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Message 5 of 18

Kent1Cooper
Consultant
Consultant
Accepted solution

[Written before seeing Message 4's drawings]  There will be a solution only if the two specific points are the same distance from the intersection of the Lines [or virtual intersection, if they don't meet each other].  There's a [white] Circle tangent to both [red] Lines at both [green] Points in the left arrangement that fits that description.  But that's not possible in the other two, in which the [dashed white] Circle is tangent to the lower Line at the lower Point, and passes through the other Point, but clearly cannot be tangent to the other Line.

CirclePoints.PNG

There would be an Ellipse that would be tangent to both Lines at both Points in the middle and right images.  Finding it would be a challenge in the middle image, but easy in the right one where the Lines are perpendicular.

EDIT:  An eye-balled approximation in your drawing:

EllipsePoints.PNG

Kent Cooper, AIA
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Message 6 of 18

Anonymous
Not applicable

How would I go about finding that elipse?

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Message 7 of 18

Kent1Cooper
Consultant
Consultant

@Anonymous wrote:

How would I go about finding that elipse?


That's a real challenge, if even possible definitively, when the Lines are not perpendicular.  In fact, there are an infinite number of solutions.  My approximation is tangent to one Line at one of the Ellipse's quadrant points, which limits the solutions, but maybe that should not be assumed.  And even given that assumption, that tangency condition could be at the Point on the other Line instead, with a different Ellipse.  Even where a Circle solution is possible, there are an infinite number of possible Ellipse solutions at different aspect ratios, with an axis along the angle bisector:

EllipsePoints2.PNG

I think at the very least you would need to come up with some more specific criteria, such as that it needs to be tangent at a quadrant point, and if so, at which of the two Points, or something.

Kent Cooper, AIA
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Message 8 of 18

R_Tweed
Advisor
Advisor
Accepted solution

I would use a spline to draw your curve that is tangent at both ends at the indicated points.  (screencast) .  Although, in order to construct a "circle" that is tangent to both lines at specific points, the two points must have a perpendicular line that intersects at a line that bisects the angle of the two original lines. 

 

Screenshot 2020-11-23 094324.png

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Message 9 of 18

dbroad
Mentor
Mentor

There can be no solution to the exact problem posed.  In order for a "circle" to be tangent to be 2 straight lines, the points of tangency need to be "always" the same distance from the vertex formed by the two lines.  Ask Kent has stated, there probably an infinite number of solutions involving ellipses.

Architect, Registered NC, VA, SC, & GA.
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Message 10 of 18

leeminardi
Mentor
Mentor

I do not think that there are an infinite number of ellipses that will satisfy the requirement. One method to approximate the ellipse would be the following. Note, I would draw a picture but I'm away from my cad computer for a couple of days.Assume the two tangent points are labeled A and B. Divide the t uvwo line segments by 10 and draw lines from the 1st point on the line containing A to the 9th point of line with B. Then draw a line from the 2nd point of A to the 8th point of B. Repeat the pattern and the result should approximate an ellipse.

Another way to proceed is to create a spline as suggested. I would use the CV method and place a CV at A, then a CV at the intersection, and the 3rd and final CV at B. This would yield a degree 2 Bezier spline tangent to the 2 lines.

lee.minardi
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Message 11 of 18

SEANT61
Advisor
Advisor

This thread has evolved to a couple of sub-topics.  Regarding an elliptical ‘fillet’, I agree with @Kent1Cooper  that there are infinite elliptical arcs that could be tangent to those two points (infinite hyperbolic arcs as well if that were of any interest).

 

As pointed out by @leeminardi , a tan-int-tan degree 2 spline can create the blend as a Parabolic arc – and only one such parabola exists (Incidentally, the connection of division points approximates a parabola).  An elliptical arc is created if the weight of the middle CP is reduced from 1.0.  Hyperbolic results from a weight greater than 1.0.

 

In the attached drawing I modified a Degree 2 spline to create several examples.  I use Lee Mac’s 5-Point Ellipse routine found here:

5-Point Ellipse | Lee Mac Programming (lee-mac.com)

and here

http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=43859.msg491251#msg491251

 


************************************************************
May your cursor always snap to the location intended.
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Message 12 of 18

SEANT61
Advisor
Advisor

File


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May your cursor always snap to the location intended.
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Message 13 of 18

hak_vz
Advisor
Advisor
Accepted solution

Circle option TTR or intersection of two perpendicular lines.

 

Untitled.png

For ellipse consult this

 

 

Miljenko Hatlak

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Message 14 of 18

hak_vz
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Advisor

Untitled2.png

Miljenko Hatlak

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Message 15 of 18

Kent1Cooper
Consultant
Consultant

@hak_vz wrote:

....

For ellipse consult this


That seems to be about finding the unknown tangency points D1 and D2 from known point A to an already-existing Ellipse, and therefore finding unknown tangent lines t1 and t2.  What the OP is trying to do is to find the Ellipse, starting from already having known Lines t1 and t2 and known point A and known points D1 and D2.  That's a very different animal, and not just some kind of reversal of the process, since that webpage's approach requires knowing where the focal points of the Ellipse are, but of course in what the OP wants, those are unknown.  [And they can't be known, since there are infinite solutions at different Ellipse aspect ratios.]

Kent Cooper, AIA
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Message 16 of 18

hak_vz
Advisor
Advisor

@Kent1CooperThis image is about general rules of tangents for ellipse. As you say there are infinite numbers of ellipses that can be constructed. If nearly symmetrical triangle is created with nearly equal distance P1A P2A it leads to Steiner inellipse.

When two tangents are orthogonal this two points can be taken as  vertex end co-vertex of a ellipse and it leads to construction of ellipse with center point method, as you have shown in your previous post. When tangents are not orthogonal solution require complex calculations.

Miljenko Hatlak

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Message 17 of 18

Anonymous
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Thanks to everyone who answered! It seems I will either have to use an ellipse or parabola or change my design but all answers were great. I've learned a lot too.

Thanks a million!

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Message 18 of 18

stevor
Collaborator
Collaborator

For a circle, see about Apollonius, at cut-the-knot .

For an ellipse: 4 knowns, 2 pts, 2 slopes; maybe:

2x/aa - 2h/aa + y'2y/bb - y'2k/bb = 0

S
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