Annotative to Viewport

[Anonymous]

Thank you so much in advance for any help and patience with the frustration.

Worked at a company that drew multileaders and DIMs on paperspace, which is easy and headache free. Now working with a company that wants them drawn in modelspace, which will require them to be annotative, and contrary to all the dummies books and fervent assurances it’s far superior and easy, I’m finding it to be a NIGHTMARE.

What I wish and envision annotative objects to be: the modelspace annotative object has no real size, other than what you specify it to be on all scales. The size is determined according to the viewport scale. SIMPLE.

Why is this not the case? That's what I'm promised is the entire point of annotative objects, but I’m running into all the trillions of things you have to fool around with and not succeeding in what is supposed to be the end result. Seems to be requiring multiple text styles, DIM styles, Multileader styles, having to add multiple custom scales to the annotation scale list, BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH. WHY? I know it’s supposed to be because AutoCAD is so customizable and has so many options, etc. SO? Why is there no option to not bother with them if you don’t want to and just say “this text / arrow / etc. element will always appear 1/16” at all paperspace viewport scales???

I know the problem is with me, and what I’m not understanding, but I’m also sure I’m not the only one and that is not a fact so rare that it’s not worth having solved already with simplified AutoCAD features. I have read up on it and understand the position of "If you can't understand what you're reading, we just can't help you", and fair enough.

Just not understanding why it HAS to be this complicated rather than "I want this model space element to appear this relative size in all scales, PERIOD".

[Bob_Zurunkle]

Welcome to the forums, John. AutoCAD comes with a standard Annotative dimension style. Type DST and hit <enter> (DST is short for DIMSTYLE).

You'll see a list of styles to choose from. Pick Annotative, then click Set Current and Close. Now set your CANNOSCALE. There's a series of items on the taskbar to choose from. One might say 1:1, or 1/8" = 1'-0" or some such thing. Try setting it to 1/2" = 1'-0". Now type DLI and hit <enter> (DLI is short for DIMLINEAR). Now click on any two points and place the dimension.

Now change CANNOSCALE to 1/4" = 1'-0" and do  a new dimension same length as the first. Notice everything about the dimension is twice the size, although the length is the same. Notice how this dimstyle is XX.XX. You can change to feet and inches by entering DST again, choosing Annotative and clicking on Modify. Then go to the Primary Units tab and change them from Decimal to Architectural and click OK and Close. You can modify a lot of aspects of the dimension style by going back into Modify and exploring the various tabs. Of course you may want to preserve the existing Annotative dimstyle, in which case you duplicate it and rename the new one to your own.

I have done something similar to this and love dimensioning "on the fly" with one dimension style, some in paperspace, and some "through the viewport" no matter what the viewport scale is (just make sure the viewport is locked). The key if you're dimensioning in modelspace is to make sure your CANNOSCALE is set to match your anticipated viewport scale.

Now, if you want to add specific scales to that annotative dimension, set ANNOAUTOSCALE to 4 (or look at the little graphic of the end of an Architect's scale (or Engineer's scale if you are an Engineer) with the lightning bolt. Then simply cycle through only the CANNOSCALES you wish to add. Then turn ANNOAUTOSCALE off again (set to -4).

[Anonymous]

Hi Bob, and thanks so much for the input.

I understand your post, although DIMs seem to be the easiest to work with annotatively as they have fixed anchor points and the text is the only thing that changes. The things that are giving me trouble are straight mtext and multileaders.

I understand the point of going through all the hassle of fooling with adding / specifying all the different text styles / multileader styles and annotation scales is so that the annotative object will only appear in the listed scales and disappear in any scales that aren’t in the list. My point is that is too much of a hassle and headache.

I’m probably missing something, but the point of doing them in model space and annotative is said to be so that you don’t have to do “multiple” versions like you do if you choose to draw text and leaders in paperspace. However, you still end up having to make (or specify) multiple versions for all the different scale options for each callout / text in model space, so you are still having to do it multiple times, but just adding more headache.

I’m envisioning an option where you don’t have to specify any desired scales in any lists, add any annotative scales, etc., but instead simply create a multileader or text object (with the arrow point or specified insertion point as the “reference anchor”) and DONE! From there in paperspace, it would always show up scaled to 1/16” (or whatever you chose), no matter the scaling of the viewport. You might have to rearrange the object around the anchor point for each different scaled viewport for it to look right, or choose to turn it off entirely if you don’t want it to show, but it should be as simple as that.

Sorry if I’m speaking nonsense, or just not getting it, but I’m trying, lol. It seems like many agree as doing callouts and texts on paperspace and avoiding annotative objects seems pretty common (just because they and I don’t have the brainpower to push past it, haha).

[RobDraw]

Annotative scaling is a tough nut to crack. Once you get it though, it really is as simple as you envision it to be. The ONE thing I found most helpful was to work in active viewports. That way you are only working with the one scale and what you see is what you get without switching back and forth between spaces.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Rob.

Yeah, I think I'm getting it down... just wish there was options that would automate things a little more.

I usually use active viewports as well. One thing that bothers me is that I have to manually change the viewport's annotation scale to match. That's an example of what I'm talking about above... shouldn't that default to change things like annotation scale to match whatever scale / zoom factor you just set the viewport to? Seems to me like it should, but maybe not.

[RobDraw]

There is a setting for that. Do some research and check out these buttons at the bottom.

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah, I know about the option button to automatically add scales but to my understanding that button is in model space, and the button adds scales to actual objects themselves rather than making a paperspace viewport automatically adjust annotative scale to a changed zoom factor / scale. Could be wrong...

[RobDraw]

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@Anonymous wrote:

Yeah, I know about the option button to automatically add scales but to my understanding that button is in model space, and the button adds scales to actual objects themselves rather than making a paperspace viewport automatically adjust annotative scale to a changed zoom factor / scale. Could be wrong...

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That is why viewport scale and annotation scale are different settings. With the way that AutoCAD handles this, I can see nothing but problems coming from automatic adjustment of objects dependent on zooming within a viewport. My viewports are locked before activating and working in them. IMHO, what you are asking for would be more suited for a presentation type software, not a documentation software.

[Anonymous]

Gotcha, ok thanks... much appreciated.

[Bob_Zurunkle · Accepted solution]

Hi OP

I wasn't trying to say you have to create the same dimension over and over. What I was first demonstrating is what you get if you use an annotative dimension style with the display setting set to different scales. It's the same if you go to a paperspace layout tab with several viewports, each one a different scale from the rest. That's where you can dimension "on the fly" in paperspace, then in another viewport, then another, then back to paperspace etc. the result should be that on the layout tab. all of the annotative dimensions should look exactly the same size (text, ticks etc) no matter what the scale of the viewport. That was all to demonstrate the first things to understand about annotative objects, and that's really the end result we are after.

Then I noted that you could take one annotative dimension and cycle through all the scales you want to have on it, and they will add those display states to the original object, IF you have ANNOAUTOSCALE turned on. the flip side is, if you don't turn it off after, you could end up adding a lot of unwanted scales to the object if you continue to change the display scale.

If you wish to see what I was attempting to describe, I believe the command is ANNOALLVISIBLE. Try making just one dimension, then cycling the scales with both variables turned on. You will soon see quite a mess from just one dimension. This is why generally you should not have the visibility variable on -- it could get quite confusing.

Although there is no one universal standard for CAD drafting practice, I tend to draw overall plans, sections etc to fit our standardized viewport scales, including dimensioning for that scale (for example, 3/8" = 1'-0" for enlarged room layouts, although 1/4" = 1'-0" might be more common). I do this in a drawing I intend as an XREF, with no layout tabs, so I work on those in modelspace. I set the display scale (CANNOSCALE) to 3/8" = 1'-0", so any dimensions I add will show the same size in this drawing as they will be seen in a 3/8" scale viewport on a layout tab in the "parent" drawing. Later, as I work back and forth between the parent and the child, if I need an overall floor plan, I could go back to the XREF, set the CANNOSCALE to 3/16" and add dimensions. This sounds backwards because I am not designing the building - I am designing structural installations in given rooms, and the overall plan is only for larger projects where our installers need to locate several rooms in several areas and several floors of a hospital for example.

In my case, I am only doing one set of dimensions at one scale in the XREF, and if I do need to do an overall "key" plan, mine don't need dimensions - only a general location. I often do detail views, but those I dimension in the parent drawing, in a layout tab, through a viewport at 1 1/2" scale or finer. These dimensions serve a different purpose than the ones I have for the overall elements of our installs, so it doesn't work for me to spend time adding scales to the XREF's dimensions. If your multileaders are annotative, once you cycle the additional scales, you can manipulate each "instance" of the same multileader independently of the other scales' versions.

I still get the sense that you wish to jump ahead to a solution for the more complex annotative objects such as multileaders, before really understanding the basics of the concept. My advice is to try to follow some of the examples even if they don't seem to apply to your case. It really is important to understand how to manipulate the modelspace display scale, the viewport scale, and the annotation tools (the little triangular images), to get a better understanding of when to have them on and off. Of course, F1 (help) is a great resource for the next steps.

Did you know that linetypes were the first objects in AutoCAD that were annotative? Set CANNOSCALE to 1:1, set your linetype to HIDDEN2,  and draw a line. It might appear to not be dashed unless you zoom in really close. Now set CANNOSCALE to 1/4", and you should be able to see the dashes better. Now try different scales. These are display scales - the don't change the fact that modelspace itself is 1:1 (full scale). they simply change the display scale of objects such as linetypes, text, dimensions, hatches, and some blocks (such as the symbol for a light switch), so that they can ultimately do that trick of appearing to be the same size on a sheet layout, whether they are in the 1/4" viewport, the 3" viewport, or even placed directly on the sheet (not in modelspace at all).

I have ranted too much, but here's a tip I did - on a multileader I use to place keys for keynotes, I opened the block it uses for the hexagon that surrounds the number, and added a wipeout to it, under the hex. Now my keynotes can partially obscure what is under them if necessary. Lettuce snow how it works for you, then we can move on to the next steps.