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Allow the same schematic terminal symbol to be shown multiple times

Allow the same schematic terminal symbol to be shown multiple times

Some customers like to show the same terminal 2, 3, or 4 times throughout their schematic for clarity.  For example, you have terminal TB1:5 on sheet 5 and you connect one wire to it, for a branch circuit.  The other side of the terminal is still available, and you could even connect a second wire to the same side.  But the circuit that you wat to connect to the other side is on sheet 7.  If you insert a terminal on sheet 7 it will automatically index up to number 6.  This is normally great, but in this case you want to connect to the other side of TB1:5.  If you override the software and change the 6 to a 5 the drawing will look the way you wish.  However, when you open Terminal Strip Editor, you will see two terminals labeled TB1:5, and your BOM will have an increased quantity reflecting the additional terminal number 5.  This of course is not what the customer was expecting.

 

I normally connect a second wire to TB1:5 and use a source/destination arrow combination to connect to the circuit on sheet 7.  This is what I call "Design Reality", because it accuraely reflects what I really want the panel shop to do. However, some customers think that this approach makes the drawing appear too busy, plus they don't want to flip back from sheet 7 to sheet 5 to see what terminal the wire came from.

 

So my idea is to allow a terminal to be shown multiple times, perhaps up to 4 times, since we can connect two wires to each side legally.  Do this by allowing the user to repeat the same terminal number and check a box labeled "Duplicate", next to the terminal number field (see attached image).  You might even think of it as designating this repeated terminal as a "child" of the first TB1:5.  The software interprets this to mean that this isn't a physical repeat of TB1:5 but a logical repeat of TB1:5.  Also allow the user to make Internal and External wiring assignments to these duplicates, so Terminal Strip Editor will display the wire annotations in the order desired.  But be sure that Terminal Strip Editor understands that these "duplicates" are still part of one physical block, so only show terminal 5 once in the graphical strip, but with up to two wire annotations per side.

26 Comments
ccad2509
Advisor

why reinvent the wheel when the solutions been out there for years

 

yes in differnt ecad packages they have already thought through the problem and implemented the solution a number of years ago

 

as mentionioning other peoples ecad systems gets people up in the air all i can say is

 

late again to the party see whats out there and just do it  

 

 

 

Not helpful Colin!  I am not referring to other CAD programs.  This forum is about AutoCAD Electrical.  Your negativity is not helpful at all.

jamorrison
Advocate

This is an intersting thought.  I use alot of Wago pluggable terminals, and I struggle to show what is wired to the plug portion of the terminals and what is wired to the base (receptacle) of the terminal.  The plug circuit could be on one sheet and the receptacle circuit on another, but it's really the same terminal in the TSE.  I could use the duplicate terminal for this scenario.  I'm sure I can come up with other uses if this were an option.

Thanks for your support and constructive input jamorrison!

ccad2509
Advisor

your trying to invent a solution for a problem that has been already adressed

 

if you honestly dont belive that you can learn from what other people are doing in the ecad world

 

then that is a very short sighted view of things and your are domed to make the same mistakes that they made to get where they are now

 

im a great beliver in seeing what other people do and learn from it

 

your wasting precious time and effort becasue  you refuse to belive other people have come up with good ideas

 

at some point somebody important will actually look at the rest of the ecad world and start asking questions

 

like why acade is not taking up ideas that lots of other ecad solutions have adopted ?

  

 

 

  

Colin, no one is on here arguing that other programs do or don't do wonderful things.  I use other programs.  And they are quite good at certain things.  I am quite familiar with what they can and cannot do.  

 

The fact is, a weakness in one program might be a strength in its competitor.  If I were introducing a new program to the market, I would absolutely try to make my program strong where the existing programs have weaknesses.  And I would focus on those weaknesses when I demo it.  When I demo AutoCAD Electrical against another brand, or if I demo another brand against AutoCAD Electrical, I point out the weaknesses in both.  Why?  Because I want the customer tpmake an informed decision about which program might meet their need best.  I They should choose the software that CAN do what they need, even if it is weak in areas that are less important to them.  

 

No software has everything!  And beware not to assume that when one software does one or two things incredibly well, that it is incredible at everything.  It might be amazing at something you do twice a week, and weak in something that you need twice every hour.  For example, AutoCAD Electrical allows me to actually connect two wires to the same wire connection.  They can both be different wire types, perhaps one is BK 4mm and the other is BK 0.75.  Other programs require the use of the angled tee symbol to illustrate two wires connecting to the same wire connection.  But both wires must be the same wire type.  Only one wire type will appear on the connection plan, even if you forced the wire type assignment on the schematic to be different for both wires.  And then you have to make sure that the orientation of the symbol matches the actual destination of the wire.  

 

When I started using intelligent electrical CAD programs, they were all from Europe.  At that time most Europeans had trained technicians who wired the panel by reading the schematic.  They didn't wire from a connection plan (a.k.a. wire list).  I remember when promis-e added the connection plan, but it was only by chance if the wire sequence in the connection plan reflected the orientation of the angled tee symbol (called a ZVD symbol) in the schematic.  The connection plan went by the order that the wire connections were created when the ZVD symbol was created, in order to determine the wire sequence on the connection plan.  So the orientation in the schematic might look the way I want, but the connection plan might show the wire sequence completely opposite.  The software only came with two different ZVD symbols.  I had to create 9 more ZVD symbols, inserting the wire connections is 9 different orders, so I could accomodate all wiring scenarios and make the connection plan match the schematic.  It would be nearly 15 years before this issue was addressed in promis-e.

 

Along came Wiring Diagram and this isue was solved. I could do what I wanted to do in the first place,  I could connect two wires to the same wire connection.  Problem solved.  No wire sequence to define.  No ZVD symbols to create.  Autodesk kept this functionality after they acquired Wiring Diagram, and they even expanded it.  Since release 2008, the orientation of the angled tee symbol determines the wire sequencing in the wire list, with no other effort invloved.

 

Many of the strengths in AutoCAD Electrical are related to mundane tasks, that we are likely to do during the bulk of our workday.  I can accept a weakness, or wait until Autodesk has a chance to improve it, when the weakness relates to a command or utility that I use less often.  Many of the posts I make here could be classified as "icing on the cake" or "wouldn't it be nice if...".  I respect that Autodesk must process these in order of priority.  They must weigh the importance/popularity of the request against the number of programmers they have available at the time.

jamorrison
Advocate

Sorry, Doug, but I feel a need to comment here also-

I have looked into EPlan, and the price is prohibitive for my company to consider.  There is also the factor of training, since AutoCAD is already known.  It is good to see what they are doing, but their approach is not from a CAD standpoint, but a database standpoint, so the two products cannot be compared Apples-to-Apples.

Colin,

I find your venoumous posts to not be helpful at all, I do not see how you hope to obtain your objective by bashing everyone. Unless getting a better product form AutoDesk is not really your objective?

ccad2509
Advisor

Jamorrision

Yes I do have an agenda I want a better product!!!!!!!

 

from my unique prospective I use the latest versions of 4 ECAD programmes and can clearly see what most of the people who frequent this forum don’t see which is the other three programmes have quite successfully worked out standard features which don’t exist in ACADE

 

2 are cad based and 1 is database based so you can’t make the database vs. cad claim

 

This brings us to the very pointed question

 

Why do you have to do Ecad designs in a DWG format and the answer is there is no reason (only tradition)

 

A new generation of electrical engineers are coming through here in Europe who have never used a dwg based product and that is the future rightly or wrongly

 

 

And Doug

 

You using your old tried and tested method of disagreement

 

Which is when xxxx years ago when you used promis e

 

Let’s be fair if you’re trying to compare functionality it has to be the same versions otherwise it’s an unfair and distorted comparison

 

Now if I was to start comparing what Acade did in version 2006 with the latest version of competing programmes then you would quite rightly cry foul

 

I wont dissect you reply because there is some blaring inaccuracies

 

So back to the original question

 

Would you rather waste time and energy reinventing the wheel?

 

Or would you be smart and take advantage of other peoples hard earned solutions and go down the same road

 

 

And again I may point out its not one company that’s come up with this solution but multiple

 

Well said jamorrison.  It takes up valuable time to sort through his posts.  Some of his ideas are good ones, but I tend not to notice his good ideas because I tend to ignore his posts altogether.  Too many negative vibes.

Icemanau
Mentor

I posted something very similar back in July last year...

 

http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/autocad-electrical-ideastation/parent-child-terminals/idi-p/5159815

 

There didn't seem to be much interest for when I posted as it only got 3 kudo's.

 

I agree that it would be useful especially when I use ACADE for multiple panels and the interconnection diagrams between those panels.

Individual sets of dwgs for each panel with another seperate set of dwgs for the interconnections, all within the one project.

Getting the Panel dwgs done is ok, but when it comes to the interconnection dwgs, if I use the same INST/LOC, I end up with double the required terminals.

 

Regards Brad

Thanks for your support Brad! I added your idea of an option to delete the scratch database without closing the software to my request for having the Rebuild/Freshen button added to the ribbon. I think a right-click from project properties should offer the option to delete and recreate the database. I know that isn't what this thread is about but I just wanted you to know that I respectfully hijacked your idea. I also Kudo'd your posting.
jjstr8
Collaborator

Doug,

 

I like the idea.  Brad's parent/child idea sounds like a possible way to implement it.  What I like to do is have a group of terminals jumpered together but all have the same terminal number, but there's no way to have it show up more than one place and have connections to the same physical terminal block.  You would have to end up doing what you described, making all wire connections in one location on a drawing.  What I'm trying to wrap my head around is distinguishing between the child component simply being additional connections on the parent and the child component being an additional physical component logically grouped with the parent.

 

Jeremy

Yes Jeremy, child devices are usually considered additional references of the same parent. They can sometimes have their own part number, as with aux contacts. When it comes to a footprint, you can add the aux contact block separately, or setup a footprint with it and another without, using the Assembly Code to trigger which. But terminals are handled differently in AutoCAD Electrical, and the solution must be compatible with the TSE. I'm sure the developers at Autodesk can handle this though.
RickFrance
Collaborator

Add your second terminal block to your project and after placement use Add Attribute on to the second terminal block. Make the attribute tag WDTYPE and give it a value of TRM or TERM. Then renumber the Terminal to match the original.

 

This worked as far as not showing two in the terminal editor but I noticed two issues that with a little testing may or may not be able to be resolved so this may be a dead end.

 

1. A pass thru terminal did not have the same line number on both sides of the two terminal blocks.

 

2. The Terminal Editor had no information on the devices or wire connected to the second terminal block that has the WDTYPE attribute.

 

I have my doubts that this can be resolved to your satisfaction but maybe this will trigger an idea with someone that might actually resolve the issue.

Icemanau
Mentor

@jjstr8, I have no problems inserting multiple linked physical terminals using the same number in a dwg. I just add it in, set the number and select the catalogue info. Then I use the Jumper tool to connect it to the first terminal.

 

The TSE see's it as a separate physical terminal with no problem.

 

What this idea is about is showing multiple instance of the one physical terminal in multiple Dwg locations.

For example, Dwg 1 & Dwg 3 shows the terminals in the schematic as a connection point to a wiring harness, while Dwg two shows the wiring harness including the terminals it connects to.

 

This means that each terminal is shown TWICE and the TSE counts double the number of required terminals which is not correct.

Having the terminals shown in Dwg 2 as children of the terminals shown in Dwgs 1 & 3 means the TSE only counts the 1 set of terminals which is correct.

 

Regards Brad

Anonymous
Not applicable

Hi everyone, is there still no solution for this?

 

Thanks in advance.

richardb15
Enthusiast

I think Doug's idea is a very useful one.   We are using 4 way Wago terminals as wiring marshalling points and it is much clearer if my from to wiring list could show connections to say 1 for one wire going to one terminal point, 2 for the next etc, but the terminal group be still be X1 - 1, much in the way relay contacts are handled now.  If this also had the rules of x wires per terminal it would be great. It may be that this can be done now but I can't see how.  Cheers, Richard

janssen_l
Advocate

Also from me a thumbs up, this option would be much appreciated!

 

Like Brad described, I got a drawing with a couple of interface sheets, where the customer wants to see (with location boxes) the terminals - each time - plus in the schematics, so I get the same terminal 3 times...

engineer2LF7NM
Contributor

Did you try to create a child component for the terminal that has to be duplicated many times?

This might be good solution as it will always show you where (sheet) the main terminal is located through references.

Also this way you will not have to use a dumb terminal or Special Explode existing one keeping drawings intelligent.

Anonymous
Not applicable

I think that there is multi-level terminal consist of multiple terminal levels and it allows us to insert them one by one.

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We use Yahoo! Japan to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Yahoo! Japan. Ads are based on both Yahoo! Japan data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Yahoo! Japan has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Yahoo! Japan to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Yahoo! Japan Privacy Policy
Naver
We use Naver to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Naver. Ads are based on both Naver data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Naver has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Naver to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Naver Privacy Policy
Quantcast
We use Quantcast to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Quantcast. Ads are based on both Quantcast data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Quantcast has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Quantcast to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Quantcast Privacy Policy
Call Tracking
We use Call Tracking to provide customized phone numbers for our campaigns. This gives you faster access to our agents and helps us more accurately evaluate our performance. We may collect data about your behavior on our sites based on the phone number provided. Call Tracking Privacy Policy
Wunderkind
We use Wunderkind to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Wunderkind. Ads are based on both Wunderkind data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Wunderkind has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Wunderkind to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Wunderkind Privacy Policy
ADC Media
We use ADC Media to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by ADC Media. Ads are based on both ADC Media data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that ADC Media has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to ADC Media to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. ADC Media Privacy Policy
AgrantSEM
We use AgrantSEM to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by AgrantSEM. Ads are based on both AgrantSEM data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that AgrantSEM has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to AgrantSEM to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. AgrantSEM Privacy Policy
Bidtellect
We use Bidtellect to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Bidtellect. Ads are based on both Bidtellect data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Bidtellect has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Bidtellect to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Bidtellect Privacy Policy
Bing
We use Bing to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Bing. Ads are based on both Bing data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Bing has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Bing to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Bing Privacy Policy
G2Crowd
We use G2Crowd to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by G2Crowd. Ads are based on both G2Crowd data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that G2Crowd has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to G2Crowd to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. G2Crowd Privacy Policy
NMPI Display
We use NMPI Display to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by NMPI Display. Ads are based on both NMPI Display data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that NMPI Display has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to NMPI Display to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. NMPI Display Privacy Policy
VK
We use VK to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by VK. Ads are based on both VK data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that VK has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to VK to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. VK Privacy Policy
Adobe Target
We use Adobe Target to test new features on our sites and customize your experience of these features. To do this, we collect behavioral data while you’re on our sites. This data may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, your IP address or device ID, your Autodesk ID, and others. You may experience a different version of our sites based on feature testing, or view personalized content based on your visitor attributes. Adobe Target Privacy Policy
Google Analytics (Advertising)
We use Google Analytics (Advertising) to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Google Analytics (Advertising). Ads are based on both Google Analytics (Advertising) data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Google Analytics (Advertising) has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Google Analytics (Advertising) to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Google Analytics (Advertising) Privacy Policy
Trendkite
We use Trendkite to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Trendkite. Ads are based on both Trendkite data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Trendkite has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Trendkite to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Trendkite Privacy Policy
Hotjar
We use Hotjar to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Hotjar. Ads are based on both Hotjar data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Hotjar has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Hotjar to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Hotjar Privacy Policy
6 Sense
We use 6 Sense to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by 6 Sense. Ads are based on both 6 Sense data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that 6 Sense has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to 6 Sense to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. 6 Sense Privacy Policy
Terminus
We use Terminus to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by Terminus. Ads are based on both Terminus data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that Terminus has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to Terminus to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. Terminus Privacy Policy
StackAdapt
We use StackAdapt to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by StackAdapt. Ads are based on both StackAdapt data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that StackAdapt has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to StackAdapt to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. StackAdapt Privacy Policy
The Trade Desk
We use The Trade Desk to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by The Trade Desk. Ads are based on both The Trade Desk data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that The Trade Desk has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to The Trade Desk to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. The Trade Desk Privacy Policy
RollWorks
We use RollWorks to deploy digital advertising on sites supported by RollWorks. Ads are based on both RollWorks data and behavioral data that we collect while you’re on our sites. The data we collect may include pages you’ve visited, trials you’ve initiated, videos you’ve played, purchases you’ve made, and your IP address or device ID. This information may be combined with data that RollWorks has collected from you. We use the data that we provide to RollWorks to better customize your digital advertising experience and present you with more relevant ads. RollWorks Privacy Policy

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