Wire numbering issues

[Anonymous]

I'm having a few wire numbering issues and I'm hoping to get some help from you talented folks.

first things first, I am using ACADE 2009 SP3

First issue: Our drawings exist entirely in paper space. When wire numbers are inserted they appear in model space. Is there a way to get the wire numbers in paper space? I normally assign wire numbers using a "project wide" approach. I notice if I assign wire numbers by "pick individual wires" they appear in paper space.

Second issue: There is a major problem where wires in a drawing will have a fixed wire number, but sometimes ACADE will assign this wire a new number. I figured out that if you move the wire around using standard CAD commands it moves the wire off of the wire number block, so ACADE sees the wire as not having a wire number and assigns it a new one. This is a big problem for my company as everyone that uses ACADE here is used to moving lines with the standard CAD commands. Is there some way to keep the wire number block attached to the line regardless of how it is moved?

Third issue: I use sequential wire numbering and every once and a while, ACADE will use a number twice. Also, I need the system to NEVER re-use a wire number. For example if wire number 001 is assigned, then that wire is deleted, wire number 001 can never be used again. ACADE doesn't seem to have this feature inherent, so I am thinking I can solve both of these issues by creating my own wire number insert function with LISP and interfacing with a database that keeps track of used wire numbers. Any input on this would be appreciated.

[dougmcalexander]

The quick answer is that the program you are using is called Electrical, it was named Wiring Diagram before Autodesk purchased it.   Wiring Diagram was a third-party add-in.  It was and is a relational database application that happens to use the AutoCAD DWG drafting engine so your drawings can be easily shared.  Since the heart of Electrical is a series of databases, only commands from the Electrical menus, which are coded to interact with the databases, should be used. 

In the case of Electrical, previous AutoCAD experience can work against you.  Using plain AutoCAD commands and concepts, even paper space, can work against Electrical's database manager.  If you purchase any other brand of competing software, they do not allow paper space and they disable standard AutoCAD commands that might interfere with their database manager. 

As an instructor, I recommend that new users of Electrical avoid, or completely turn off, the standard AutoCAD menus like Home and Insert.  I also recommend that they avoid typing commands at the command prompt.  Furthermore I discourage the use of paper space.  For panel layouts, scale the border up to fit the scale of the panel and footprints.  Electrical supports paper space to some extent but there will still be issues when trying to mix model space and paper space.  Paper space came about as part of the AutoCAD drafting engine, which inherently supports mechanical design, not electrical design.  It just so happens to be part of the AutoCAD engine that Electrical sits on, but is not something that Electrical was designed to work with. 

Think of it this way, Electrical gives you the benefit of saving your drawings in DWG format. Beyond that, it is recommended that you only use commands available from the Project, Schematic, Panel, Reports, Import/Export, and Conversion Tools tabs of the Ribbon menu (only available in versions 2010 and later).  This assures that you are using proper Electrical commands.  For example, The Electrical Move is smart, the AutoCAD Move is dumb.  The Electrical Move knows to reconcile tags, re-join wires, and update the database so reports are accurate, while plain AutoCAD Move has no idea what a database is and thinks the wire is a line.  It thinks the tag is attribute text that you fill in so it leaves it alone.  Electrical Wire Number Move knows to reconcile the wire number when moved; it keeps the wire number associated with its respective wire when moved, and it updates the database so reports are accurate.

Switching from plain AutoCAD to Electrical can be more difficult than starting out with Electrical fresh and new, with no previous AutoCAD experience. I teach a 5-day course specifically for those with no previous AutoCAD experience.  Those familiar with plain AutoCAD try to make Electrical fit its functionality.  Anyone who has attended one of my admin-level training courses can tell you that I cover commands and concepts of plain AutoCAD that can be manipulated to our advantage for use with Electrical.  So I'm not saying we throw out all AutoCAD commands and concepts, but one needs to have an adequate understanding of how Electrical makes use of plain AutoCAD before one should attempt to fool Electrical with plain AutoCAD "trickery".  And we must also realize that some plain AutoCAD commands and concepts are simply off-limits no matter what you know.

I think you said you are using version 2009.  You would benefit greatly from upgrading.  The new ribbon menu simplifies the command structure, separating it into tabs according to function.  There is no mixture of plain AutoCAD commands and Electrical commands within the menu tabs. You have Home, Insert, and Express Tools tabs from plain AutoCAD, and Project, Schematic, Panel, Reports, Import/Export, and Conversion Tools tabs from Electrical.  Just stay away from Home, Insert, and Express Tools and you're safe.  I only go to those menus when I am performing admin-level functions for Electrical, like setting up an electrical border template.

[dougmcalexander]

Regarding Fixed wire numbers or tags, I haven't noticed any problems in that area.  I am fairly familiar with where the bugs are.  But bear in mind that what makes them fixed is their layer name.  When you set a wire number to fixed, from example by using the Edit Wire Number command to manually assign a wire number, Electrical communicates with the plain AutoCAD drafting engine and has the wire number block re-assigned from layer WIRENO to layer WIREFIXED.  The Electrical code that assigns wire numbers automatically knows to leave wire number blocks on layer WIREFIXED alone.  The retag command knows to leave tags assigned to layer TAGFIXED alone.  I set the color for layer WIRENO to green and WIREFIXED to red.  I know then that green wire numbers are go for change during automatic wire numbering while red wire numbers are no-go for change.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the reply.

Ok, so it looks like we need to switch to model space for the drawings. I did some testing and this shouldn't be a problem.

Also as you said, it seems the "standard" autoCAD commands are the root of most wire numbering issues I am having. I will have to look into modifying the interface so that the ACADE native commands can be accepted easier.

Interesting. Thanks again!

[dougmcalexander]

You're quite welcome!  I remember the days when the program was named Wiring Diagram.  We purchased it, added it to our AutoCAD, got training for it, and all was good.  When the name became AutoCAD Electrical, people saw the word AutoCAD and expected it to work like the drafting program they know and love.  Managers and CEOs even figured that it was a program for drafters, because of the name AutoCAD. 

In 1991 the company I worked for was using promis-e. It was the tool for the design engineers.  We had drafters to support us, primarily for panel layouts, which were done in AutoCAD, but the circuit design was my primary job, using promis-e.  When we switched to Wiring Diagram in 1997, the design engineers took a 3-day course to learn how to use Wiring Diagram.  We knew that it would be added to our AutoCAD but there was no question it was a separate program, requiring separate training.  The program did not have the intelligent panel layout capability back then so the training was shorter.

Almost everywhere I go I see people using Electrical as little more than a glorified symbol library.  They even use the default WIRES layer, rather than adding actual wire types through Electrical's Create/Edit Wire Type tool.  So much of this program goes untapped because new users don't know what they don't know about it, and experienced AutoCAD users tend to stick to what they know and attempt to force Electrical to interpret their plain drafting, rather than learning how to harness the power of the Electrical commands and utilities.

So many of my classes are for companies who purchased the software, installed it, and struggled to learn it on their own, only to give up after a year or so without significant productivity.  Eventually a manager or CEO learns of other companies who have experienced great success with the software and he/she finally decides that it is time to learn what they are missing. 

In 1997 we had no problem understanding that we needed separate training for Wiring Diagram because it was our decision to purchase it and add it to our plain AutoCAD.  I wish Autodesk had simply named it Autodesk "Wiring Diagram".  When VIA Development purchased it from CimLogic, they kept the name the same.  There was no confusion.  Of course the confusion goes deeper now that we don't have to install it separately, after installing AutoCAD.  Both AutoCAD and Electrical come on the same disk(s) and the Installation Process installs Electrical for us, after it installs AutoCAD.

Your company fell prey to a common pitfall.  Not your fault, but now you know.

[mchymbor]

Doug:

I ran across this comment and had to say thanks. I have a young engineer with this very issue. In spite of my warnings, he wants to race through the drawing at the speed of light using all the Autocad commands mapped to his mouse buttons. Problem is, most of them are the non-Electrical ones.

I sent him the link and after reading it he gave me the Ohhhhhhhh, that's why.....

These millennials.

Thanks again.

[dougmcalexander]

You're quite welcome. It's great to know that I don't spend time typing for nothing.

[spartan_vng]

Hello Doug,

 A co-worker forwarded this post to me and as a new user to AE we are getting conflicting views on whether we can use paperspace or not. In your third paragraph you mention that AE can use paper space to some extent but was not designed for it. Where I would like our company to use paper space is for the title blocks only and everything else would reside in the model. Are there any issues with AE if we go this route?

Regards,

Vince

[dougmcalexander]

Some have been successful placing the title block in paperspace. That should not be a problem because you are only writing values to title block attributes. There are no bi-directional links between the title block and components or wires. Just avoid placing components or wires in paperspace.

[jseefdrumr]

To expand on what Doug said about using paperspace in ACADE....

I always use paperspace, I always have. It's a personal preference, I come from a background where modelspace was for graphics only, and paperspace was for annotations only. The habits and workflows from that first job have stuck with me for a couple of decades.

I had to change a lot of my workflows in this regard, once I moved to ACADE. Here is a rough guideline:

The key to successfully working in paperspace is knowing that ACADE doesn't look in paperspace when it's on the hunt for info. Therefore, don't put anything there that is 'intelligent'... reports won't be populated with info from paperspace.

In our setup, only the title block can be placed in paperspace. Because as Doug said, it doesn't contain any attribute information that will feed into the schematic/panel components. If it did, ACADE wouldn't be able to find it. I will put odds and ends of annotation in paperspace, like my BOMs or other tables. This way I don't have to scale my tables after inserting them (usually only an issue in panel layouts). But that's the limit.

My title block has attributes, and I have no problems running project-wide title block updates. I set up the title block according to Doug's website and it has worked flawlessly for me.