Wire Layout - Trunking wires

[Anonymous]

Good Day,

I have question regarding how wires are shown on drawings. I have very little electrical knowledge, I am mechanical, but since I am the only drafter in our company, these single line layout drawings are done by me. I am learning as I go what symbols and terminology is used and very grateful for all the electrical symbols within the software.

The electrician came up to me with a new term and for some reason I can't find anyway to do what he wants with the software.

Instead of using a Dot Tee Marker to show a connection between wire connections, and 90° intersections he wants to make rounds(fillets) at the intersections. he says it to show that the wires are not the same, but to avoid clouding up the drawing sheet with multiple wires that go to the same terminal block etc...

so he wants whats in the red box instead of the yellow box in the image below


He called this wire trunking, I have not found a way to do this in the software except to create a arc and copy and past it at every intersection and adjust the wires. Very Time Consuming method

Is there a way to do this faster and more efficient?

(please keep in mind that I don't know much electrical terms design methods when replying)

Thanks!!  Much appreciated!!

[s.wile]

If you are using AutoCAD Electrical, a wire is defined as an AutoCAD Line on a Wire Type Layer. An Arc is not a wire. You can do this but it will mess up your wire reporting.

Could you offer this as an option?

It will look like this...

If it goes the wrong way you can flip it here...

[s.wile · Accepted solution]

Ok after posting I now see that you are trying to represent multi wires running into a single "multi wire". So my past reply really doesn’t solve the wire reporting issue. Electricals answer to your problem would be Fan-In/Out. Everything on the multi wire side of the wire is no longer a wire so fillets are perfectly acceptable. However it takes a Fan Out to pull the single wires back out of the multi wire.

[Anonymous]

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@s.wile wrote:

Ok after posting I now see that you are trying to represent multi wires running into a single "multi wire". So my past reply really doesn’t solve the wire reporting issue.

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Hi, s.wile,

Currently I only use AutoCAD Electrical to convert hand drawn "napkin" sketches to a more professional looking drawing layout with our company title block. haha, I am nowhere near ready to dig into the wire reporting and all the other stuff AutoCAD Electrical is capable of. It used to take me days to create a ladder diagram in vanilla AutoCAD and Inventor. Now I can rip out multiple drawings a day because of the schematic library. Everything was going great until my electrician requested me to add these "rounds".

I believe the fan in and out is my solution to his request, as you are correct about the multi-wires into a single multi-wire.

Thanks!!

PS-I had a quick search and didn't come up with anything, but eventually I would like to increase my skill level with AutoCAD Electrical and incorporate electrical designs into my Mechanical Design in Inventor.

Do you have any learning references you can point me too?

Thanks again...

[Anonymous]

I would bring this up with your supervisor. The person requesting this may not be aware of what he is asking for and the labor involved. He may be asking for something your supervisor doesn't want. Having the wire dot symbol is very common for schematic ladder diagrams.  

Usually you have two types of wiremen. One wires control panels and is fully capable of reading almost any wire diagram. The other type of wireman mechanically assembles a machine and wires the cables between control panels and field devices. This guy will have a hard time wiring using just a ladder schematic diagram because he prefers mechanical aspects.

What you may need to do (and is very common) is create a ladder schematic which encompasses everything and a separate machine wiring diagram which only shows the wiring outside of the cabinet. A machine wiring diagram has to be very simple and easy for anyone to figure out. A schematic ladder diagram takes time for someone to learn. The last thing anyone needs is a not so happy wireman throwing tools around because he has to reverse engineer the schematic ladder diagram. I have to admit that I am pretty good at creating machine wiring diagrams. I almost made a wireman cry once because my wiring diagram was so simple to use. It was the first time he had seen a drawing with scaled views of control panel boxes as they look in real life. Normally control engineers will draw a generic box to represent a panel and place a description inside. A lot of times the description doesn't match the schematic description, hence the reason why some wrenches get launched into the air.

[Anonymous]

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@Anonymous wrote:

I would bring this up with your supervisor. The person requesting this may not be aware of what he is asking for and the labor involved. He may be asking for something your supervisor doesn't want. Having the wire dot symbol is very common for schematic ladder diagrams.  

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Hey electricman1,

for ladder diagrams, I do use the wire dot symbol, which means that those wires connect. (I think or assume)

but the symbol I was searching for, was for wires that merge and run the same route but are not connected, they run the same route and end up at a different spot near the terminal block or panel. the fan in and fan out are what I am looking for. Makes for a cleaner drawing I suppose..he said that he used an arc to normally display this but ACAD Electrical uses a straight line offset as s.wile posted above in the image...

As I said this is all new, so I am trying to learn as I go...

Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Hi SeanFarr,

If you Really, Really wanted to see an arc, you could modify 16 symbols.

It depends on what library your are using. I wouldn't recommend changing them but if it is a requirement then it can be done.

From the JIC125 lib these are the 16 symbols you would need to change:

HT0_124

HT0_142

HT0_148

HT0_184

HT0_218

HT0_248

HT0_281

HT0_284

HT0_412

HT0_418

HT0_421

HT0_481

HT0_812

HT0_821

HT0_824

HT0_842

no they are no just random numbers...

            2

4         O          1

            8

Its the connect order based on orientation. So 842 term 1 is at the bottom, term 2 is to the left and term3 ends at the top.

In any case you would have to change the straight line to an arc, DO NOT change the terminals. 

Before you make any changes to the library components... Save a copy.

Also I would see if it is really required, arcs are not common in a schematic, you could add more detail to the schematics.

I personal hate one-line diagrams and throw them out... I like to see ALL connections... not just one line representing 3 buses...

It makes placing taps very hard when the tap shows up on a one line... Then I have to look at the schematic anyway..So I saved no time using the one-line... but I digress. 

In any case all you have to do is open the 16 symbols and make the changes.

You can make the changes in regular AutoCAD, but do not touch the attributes if that's the case.

I recommend making the changes in the symbol builder. 

I hope this helps,

James Alger

SolidCAD

[testsubject]

I agree with you James. I hate highway wiring. Used to work with ComEd prints and they are a nightmare.

[Icemanau]

I to find single line diagrams of limited use.

I work with HV CB boards made up of multiple CB panels and single line diagrams are only good for getting a sense of how many and what type of panels are used to make the complete board.

For wiring purposes, we still need the schematics which show all the panel wiring.

Regards Brad

[Anonymous]

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@Anonymous wrote:

Hi SeanFarr,

If you Really, Really wanted to see an arc, you could modify 16 symbols.

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Haha, that's ok, i have come to realize that all electricians have their own take on symbols. The electrician here uses an arc on his hand sketches, but arcs or diagonally straight lines, doesn't matter as long as the drawing is interpreted the same. I had never came across the "Fan Out or Fan In" drawing technique before, I knew that the software was capable, just the terminology being used was different. Again my electrician calls it trunking, but AutoCAD Electrical calls it Fanning.

Thanks!!

[Anonymous]

I have very limited knowledge of electrical wiring and drawings, i was hired as a mechanical drafter, but am now an all in one type guy, we don't have an engineer on staff, so all our work gets sent to a third party company for approval and stamping.

That being said, could you explain you reply?? haha, layout drawings are only good for what??

Is there a better way to do these types of drawings?

i use inventor and there is routing options within that and tha info can be exported to AutoCAD electrical, but I am unsure of the process and what is best practice for this type of work.

The single line layout drawings are of substations such as this one, that have a transformer, switch gear, breaker panel and control board section. For an underground mining applications.

I would to have be able to have a full set of prints of the elctrical components and routed wires to go along with the modeled skid.

But have no idea how to being this type of project.

Thanks

[Anonymous]

Ah Cable and Harness,

Well technically its inventor and should be posted in the inventor discussion group, but half of it is ACADE.

The most successful process I have found is make the Schematics in ACADE and use the Export to Inventor (as XML) button in the Import/Export Data Tab. (save it a location you can find again easily).

Then Import the Electrical Data into Inventor, from the "Cable and Harness" environment. (you must be in a harness part)  

Select Import Data, and choose the XML file.

You have to match device codes (component tags).  Select the Component Tag and assign it to an existing Electrical Component in Inventor (you will have to add pins before doing this or it can't route anywhere.).

Before Making new parts with pins fix the library.

I like to Modified the Cable and Harness Library stored in Inventor, because I like to see my wires setup as Colour_Gauge.

Inventor stores all wires as Gauge -Colour... which blows. (you can switch acade or inventor just make sure they match.)

All of the electrical components in Inventor have to include "Pins", which act just like a terminal it ends the wire connection.

So you need to have both PIN1 (component 1) and PIN2 (component 2) created with pins to get a wire.

If you have the components with pins, then you should also create wire segments (like a Cable or a Harness!... to route the wires.

Segments are extra fun because they are literally just 3d points in space that the segment forms around.

So The steps are:

1. Export data from ACADE

2. Make sure the Inventor Models are ready to Import to (Cable and Harness lib modified and pins added)

3. Create Segments (for Wire Routing)

4. Import the Harness data ( the XML you Exported from ACADE)

5. Run "Auto Route Wires"

6. Fix any wires the routed improperly (jumpers seem to screw up so just unroute them).

Then your done! 

I hope this helps,

James Alger

SolidCAD 

[Anonymous]

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@Anonymous wrote:

Ah Cable and Harness,

Well technically its inventor and should be posted in the inventor discussion group, but half of it is ACADE.

---

I actually posted a question similar here in the inventor forum and there wasn't much of a response, I think the inventor forum has more mechanical guys than electrical.

Anyways, the info you have posted will get me going in the right direction. I think a training course is required though, I understand what you have said, but if I had a better understanding of AutoCAD Electrical, this would probably help the process.

Thanks for your time and reply!

[Anonymous]

LOL,

Well I'm glad it will help.

I recommend speaking to your local Re-seller and asking them if they have a "Cable and Harness" course.

Make sure its a combination class with atleast 1 Day of ACADE and 1 Day of Inventor.  

(Otherwise you won't get much out of the course).

Regards,

James Alger

SolidCAD

[Anonymous]

How does this seem for pricing, I think I would have a hard time convincing my manager for approval

Inventor Cable and Harness - 1 day course is $600

AutoCAD Electrical 1 - 4 day course $1600

plus this is out of town, so accomadations are extra.

I have outsourced this "cheaper" alternative, but am skeptical.

http://www.infiniteskills.com/autocad/

Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Sean,

Your in Ontario (near Sudbury!).

You could Contact us:

SolidCAD Solutions

www.SolidCAD.ca

1-877-438-2231

We do training all over Ontario, and We offer a course in Cable and Harness (your class would be customized).

Likely a 2-3 day Course. ( its different pricing, for custom courses).

That said,

I recommend you check out the prices and offering of all  Re-sellers in Ontario, to see which one works best for you. 

Regards,

James Alger

SolidCAD 

[Anonymous]

Yup, I have a contact rep up from SolidCAD.

I will email him about custom training course and see what we can get for pricing.

Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Infinite Skills isn't too bad. It is far better than the course i took on AutoCAD Electrical from distributor. I have received the best information from the book, AutoCAD Electrical 2013 for Electrical Control Designers. $35 US kindle version.

[Anonymous]

Hi, 

you solved only half of the problem. 

When modifying the HTO_XXX.dwg blocs you can chamfer the interconnexion (BLUE) but still I can't conceive how to get the chamfer on the simple change of direction of my wire (RED).  I can do it manually (YELLOW) but it mess up the wire property and it's long. 

Do you guys have any ideas on how to do it ? 

Thanks

[jalger]

Ah well you only asked half a question...

Unfortunately there is no way to alter the Wire command to produce the Fillet (the curve) on the wire.

You could however make a fake generic component (HDV01, VDV01) that Passes the wire connection through your curved wire. You will likely need to make 4 versions (one for each Quadrant) (Up-Left, Up-Right, Down-Left, Down-Right).

The component would need to be Authored Properly to pass the wires through.

Likely you also want to keep the same wire number on both sides so you will have to use "WD_Jumpers" to pass the Wire number from the start location (wherever wire connection 1 is) to the other side (Wire connection 2).

I hope this helps,

(hahaha funny... I have been at Redcage for 6 years!... I left SC august 2013)

James