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Using destination arrows with fan out destinations

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Message 1 of 22
tcoppens84SWP
1428 Views, 21 Replies

Using destination arrows with fan out destinations

I'm trying to make a daisy-chained connection between the safety terminals on a VFD. I have the control terminals created as a child component to the main symbol. There are three conductors that come from one cable and go to three different terminals on the VFD, and from those terminals the next daisy-chain is connected, like this:

tcoppens84SWP_1-1647552749647.png

The "D?" comes from the previous VFD, and the "S?" will go to the next VFD. I managed to get the fan in/out symbols added, but when I try to put a destination arrow on the top multi-wire at "D?", it says there cannot be more than one on the network and flags the offending fan-out destination symbol "D".

 

Is there a way to achieve this, and if not, what would be a good way to draw this type of connection?

21 REPLIES 21
Message 2 of 22
jseefdrumr
in reply to: tcoppens84SWP

You can't mix and match the different types of source/destination signals. If you use fan-in sources, you have to use fan-out destinations.

 

Generally speaking, it works like this. Pull up my screenshot and read along for the basic process:

*you take your 3 individual wires, wherever they start from, and place fan-in sources on them

*next, you take those 3 wires and 'fan them in' to a cable

*the cable goes on a special layer named _MULTI_WIRE (not totally sure that is its default name, though)

*the cable is now a single line. You can use the reference-only signal arrows (found under MISC in the Icon Menu) on the cable if it needs to jump to another sheet. (note that you can use the normal ones, but since you're not inserting them on actual wires, they probably won't behave correctly all the time. I do it that way and just deal with their bad manners.)

*at your VFD, you'll start out with that cable arriving. It will need a destination arrow, don't forget. Then, 'fan out' the wires that were inside that cable. At this point, once they are drawn as individual wires again, they need to go back on a proper wire layer.

*finally, somewhere in the middle of your freshly-drawn wires, you'll insert the fan-out destinations.

*for you the process will begin again with you drawing three wires from those terminals, fanning them in to a cable, giving that cable a reference-only source, and then moving on to the next drawing.

 

Some notes:

-the _MULTI_WIRE layer has special properties. ACADE won't consider it when you tell it to automatically number the wires. If it needs to be identified, use the cable marker symbols.

-I make the color of my cable layer something totally ridiculous so it's very obvious when inside a drawing that this is not a normal wire. As seen in the screenshot, lol.

-When fanning in and out, I typically use a fillet to create a rounded look to the wires as they fan. You can see this in my screenshot. That little curve also goes on the _MULTI_WIRE layer. This way, in my drawings, if you see a curved line, you automatically know you're dealing with a wire that came out of a cable.

 

If you haven't already, be sure to review 'To Work With Fan In/Fan Out Source and Destination Markers' and 'To Use Fan In/Fan Out Source and Destination Markers (Example)' in HELP.

 



Jim Seefeldt
Electrical Engineering Technician


Message 3 of 22
tcoppens84SWP
in reply to: jseefdrumr

Okay, thanks. I'll give this a try.

 

Just to clarify, does the _MULTI_WIRE layer need to be defined as an actual wire layer, like the ones listed in the WIRETYPESEL dialog?

 

Message 4 of 22
jseefdrumr
in reply to: tcoppens84SWP

Yes. Add it as a wire type and set it to NOT accept wire numbers. If it's not already present as a default then set it that way in your templates.



Jim Seefeldt
Electrical Engineering Technician


Message 5 of 22

I followed your instructions, and here's what I ended up with.

tcoppens84SWP_0-1648154635970.png

It's strange. The fan out symbols have wire numbers and the correct description for what they're linked to in the previous drawing's fan in symbols. But the wires they're attached to are not picking up the wire number like yours. I have the _MULTI_WIRE layer assigned as a wire layer with NO numbering. I tried placing the FI/O symbols in the middle of the WIRES lines and at the end of the WIRES lines, but there was no difference. I've freshened and updated my signal codes, and I've renumbered all my wires. One thing I'm confused about is the sequence that the different lines and symbols are supposed to be in. Does it need to be sequenced as:

 

1. WIRES --> Fan In/Out Symbol --> _MULTI_WIRE --> Reference-only arrow

(^^ This way on the Fan-In Source side in your example)

or

2. WIRES --> Fan In/Out Symbol --> WIRES --> _MULTI_WIRE --> Reference-only arrow

(^^ This way on your Fan Out Destination side of your example)

or

3. WIRES --> _MULTI_WIRE --> Fan In/Out Symbol --> _MULTI_WIRE --> Reference-only arrow

 

A couple other questions:

Will the wire numbers carry over across the VFD terminal to the next daisy chain wire?

Does it matter how the multi-wire lines are connected to each other? The line that all the fillets fan into is just one line. Does it need to be broken up at each point?

Message 6 of 22
jseefdrumr
in reply to: tcoppens84SWP

Welp. I went through the process just now, and it appears that this command is now broken. I'm not sure when that happened, as I haven't drawn these for quite a while. But it's definitely not working as it should be.

 

You appear to be doing everything right. I get the same results as you doing it the way I explained it, and also as it's outlined in HELP. I know that in the past this worked correctly, so I'm assuming that at some point an update or a new version broke this piece of functionality.

 

My original reply to your post was basically me just telling you how to do stuff from memory. So, when you had problems, I went and tried it myself to make sure I told you right to begin with. That's when I discovered that the command is broken and how it's broken.

 

When you place the destinations, ACADE is supposed to do the following, according to HELP:

*insert the destination where you clicked on the wire

*change one side of the wire to a non-wire layer (which side that is, depends on which orientation you picked in the dialog)

*bring over the wire number and place a wire number copy on the wire

 

What's happening here, is that when you place the destinations, ACADE isn't placing the wire number copy on the wire, it's placing it to the left of the destination (or below it, if you're using vertical wires). When it does that, the wire number pointer (an invisible piece of data identifying a wire's number) is also placed on the left. So, for two out of the four possible destination orientations to pick from, ACADE is trying to place a wire number pointer on a non-wire layer. This causes the software to lose track of the wire number totally. (From what I can tell so far, all four of the source orientations are working normally.)

 

There's no way for you or I to fix this. We have to come up with a workaround.

 

So far the only thing I've tried that worked was to just do what you've already done, and then for the wires that ended up not receiving their wire number copy, I gave them fixed wire numbers that matched the source's wire number. I didn't have enough time to try much more than that, but my instincts tell me this is most likely the fastest workaround with the least amount of work involved.

 

Meanwhile, let's hope some other users chime in to confirm that they can reproduce this. I'll also shout out to @Anonymous to see if there's any insight to be offered here, and to see if this is something the devs are aware of yet.

 



Jim Seefeldt
Electrical Engineering Technician


Message 7 of 22
tcoppens84SWP
in reply to: jseefdrumr

That would explain why wire numbers kept showing up on my multi wire, but not the regular wire. Your proposed solution should be a fine work-around since I don't anticipate the wire number will change. Curious to see if there's a fix as well.

 

 

Message 8 of 22

Hi, I am not sure I am following exactly what you are describing. You shouldn't have to insert wires and place them on the _MULTI_WIRE layer. Here is what I tried and what is described in the Help example, https://help.autodesk.com/view/ACAD_E/2019/ENU/index.html?guid=GUID-34B59DFC-AC8E-4050-9732-1AE51EF7...

 

I insert normal wires, then when I insert the Fan In\Out Source or destination in a wire, AutoCAD Electrical breaks the wire and changes the wire layer of one of the pieces depending on which orientation selected in the dialog box. The wire numbers carried over to the fan out destination as I expected when I updated wire numbers.

 

Can you document the steps you did? Or a video would be really helpful if you can provide that.

 

What version of AutoCAD Electrical are you using?

 

Regards,

Pat Murnen



Pat Murnen
Principal Content Developer
Product Development – AutoCAD Product Line Group

Autodesk, Inc.

Message 9 of 22

@PatMurnen_Adsk 

I am using ACE 2022. I followed the instructions on the page you linked, and here's what I ended up with immediately after placing the fan in/out symbols and doing nothing else.

 

Source side everything is as it should be. S1_1 and S2_1 both fan in to the right, while SCOM_1 fans in to the left (_MULTI_WIRE is the thicker purple lines):

tcoppens84SWP_0-1648220233056.png

 

The destination side is not correct. I used the direction that it fans out to the right, the "east" option in the dialog box. The wires on the right side of the fan out symbols DO NOT have wire numbers assigned according to the "Edit wire numbers" dialog, nor did they appear when I updated wire numbers on this drawing. Strangely, the top destination symbol didn't change the wire type to its left. They are all the same block name.

tcoppens84SWP_1-1648220315129.png

 

Message 10 of 22
jseefdrumr
in reply to: tcoppens84SWP

I'll make a screencast today showing this. Thanks Pat!



Jim Seefeldt
Electrical Engineering Technician


Message 11 of 22
jseefdrumr
in reply to: tcoppens84SWP

screencast

 

Here's a link to the screencast I made showing this problem. Here's a rundown:

 

In the beginning you'll see me try to apply wire numbers to two different wires. One of them doesn't accept the wire number because it is on the non-wire layer _MULTI_WIRE. This is how it's supposed to work.

 

Next I insert fan-in sources, according to the orientations from the dialog box. For all four of these, we see the software apply a wire number to the gray wire, and not the multi wire layer.

 

Then I insert the fan-out destinations, again according to the orientations from the dialog box. Note that two of these received wire numbers on the multi wire layer. On those two examples I went back to try and apply wire number copies to the wires, which should result in them picking up the wire number from the source, but they don't. I believe this is because for these two destination orientations ACADE is inserting the wire number pointer on the non-wire layer. Because of that, the wire number is getting lost into the ether and actual wires attached to that fan-out destination don't know what their number is.

 

Also another weird thing: Once this has happened, I am able to apply more wire number copies to the multi-wires that received them in error. It's as if they are suddenly allowed to be actual wires, even though that's not a wire layer and I can't number other wires on that layer elsewhere in the drawing. This, specifically, is why I tried to add wire numbers to the two wires at the beginning of the video.

 

I am using ACADE 2021 on Win10.

 



Jim Seefeldt
Electrical Engineering Technician


Message 12 of 22
PatMurnen_Adsk
in reply to: jseefdrumr

Thanks for the details and the screencast. I will post once I've been able to reproduce this and understand what is going on.

 

Regards,

Pat



Pat Murnen
Principal Content Developer
Product Development – AutoCAD Product Line Group

Autodesk, Inc.

Message 13 of 22

Hi, I was able to reproduce the issue with the drawing Jim sent. I tried this in 2019 and 2022 and the issue existed in both releases. I don't have any other releases installed right now.

 

It looks like it is a problem for 2 orientations selected when you insert the fan out destinations as a separate command rather than inserting the destination from the dialog that pops up after you insert the source.

 

murnenp_0-1648475617389.png

So, first workaround would be to insert the destination right after the source while still in that command.

murnenp_1-1648475721058.png

No wire number is inserted in this workflow so you still need to run the Insert Wire Numbers.

 

But, if you use the separate Fan Out Destination command and the wire number ends up on the wrong side, I would recommend removing it and then using the Insert Wire Numbers command to add them correctly. You can use the AEERASECOMP command to remove a wire number. It cleans up any hidden intelligence related to wire numbers also.

 

I will log this issue. If you want me to add any information to the logged case, just post it here. How it affects your work, productivity, and efficiency is helpful to the team when prioritizing issues.

 

Regards,

Pat Murnen

 



Pat Murnen
Principal Content Developer
Product Development – AutoCAD Product Line Group

Autodesk, Inc.

Message 14 of 22
jseefdrumr
in reply to: tcoppens84SWP

Thanks Pat! I knew we weren't crazy, lol.

 

The first work-around you posted does work, but is totally impractical if your destinations lie on another sheet.

 

Meanwhile, the other work-around appears to function just fine for me, after trying it in several different projects. Some of those were quite old and I was surprised to see that the problem existed there and went unnoticed by me. Those projects would have been created with the 2017 release of the software, I think.

 

Thanks for the assist!



Jim Seefeldt
Electrical Engineering Technician


Message 15 of 22
PatMurnen_Adsk
in reply to: jseefdrumr

Jim, right,  many times the destination is on another drawing so you can't insert it right away. I am surprised it hasn't been reported previously since it does appear to have been there for awhile. I also tried seeing if having the wire number there before inserting the fan in\out symbols would help but it didn't. All of the fan source orientations seem to work fine, it's just those 2 orientations for the fan destinations.

 

Regards,

Pat



Pat Murnen
Principal Content Developer
Product Development – AutoCAD Product Line Group

Autodesk, Inc.

Message 16 of 22

I appreciate you looking into this! Thanks for the response.

There are spots where your first work-around will do. However, going from page to page, ACADE will not let me edit the wire numbers since a fan-in destination exists on the network. I can manually edit the value of the WIRENO attribute to the correct number in the properties panel for the HA1D3_INLINE block, so at least they're there. @jseefdrumr how did you get this work-around to... well... work?

Message 17 of 22
jseefdrumr
in reply to: tcoppens84SWP

Go to the destinations that were wonky. Use the Delete Component command to kill the wire number that was placed on the _MULTI_WIRE side. You should see that the destination signal now has a bunch of question marks where the wire number used to be.

 

Then, use the Insert Wire Number command to automatically number the wires attached to the destinations. They should receive the same wire number as the source.

 

If this doesn't work for you, it may because of the attempts at editing wire numbers and trying to get them on the correct side of the destination symbol. Try deleting all the destinations, followed by a database rebuild (AEREBUILDDB on the command line, there's no button for it by default), and then re-insert the destinations. At that point, it should work as described.



Jim Seefeldt
Electrical Engineering Technician


Message 18 of 22

It's still not working. I AEERASECOMP'ed the fan out destinations, did the AEREBUILDDB for a complete rebuild, and AEERASECOMP'ed the _MULTI_WIRE wire numbers. The question marks appeared on the fan out symbol like they're supposed to, but when I inserted wire numbers drawing-wide, nothing changed on the symbols, and it just added more question marks to the WIRES wire numbers. AEUPDATESIGREF did nothing. 

 

Can I send someone these files for them to take a look at? I don't know what else I can try. 

 

For now I'm just going to use the fan out directions that work.

Message 19 of 22
jseefdrumr
in reply to: tcoppens84SWP

I PM'd my email to you.



Jim Seefeldt
Electrical Engineering Technician


Message 20 of 22
jseefdrumr
in reply to: tcoppens84SWP

OK, an update:

 

Pat figured out why the work-around wasn't working for you, and it was due to an error I made early on in this thread.

 

It all comes down to when I told you to add _MULTI_WIRE to the wire types. That's not necessary - it's defined by default in drawing properties under the 'Styles' tab. Removing that layer from the wire types table, and then attempting Pat's work-around, got me the proper results in your project. This has no bearing on the original problem, apparently, but it does affect the work-around.

 

When you have time, can you follow those steps for me please, just to verify and double-check my work? Remember to first remove _MULTI_WIRE from the wire types table, then insert the destinations as outlined in Pat's work-around. Post back and let us know if that at least fixed the work-around for you.

 



Jim Seefeldt
Electrical Engineering Technician


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