Terminal Strip as Common Rail

Terminal Strip as Common Rail

lmorganEUM38
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Message 1 of 10

Terminal Strip as Common Rail

lmorganEUM38
Explorer
Explorer

Hello,

I have been battling with a very simple task with regards terminal strips.

I want to have a bank of common terminals, jumpered together e.g. +24vdc, 0vdc.

I draw these on the schematic and they look as I intended, when I open the Terminal strip editor, the terminals are all looped together.

Please see the attached pics.

 

It makes sense that this happens in the software but in the real world I want the jumper to be the 'Loop' and the terminals to be fully populated so I can add my own spares.

 

What I am asking is for suggestions on how to manipulate the Terminals on the schematic/TSE, OR do I need to change my approach?

 

Thanks in advance. 

 

lmorganEUM38

Accepted solutions (1)
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Replies (9)
Message 2 of 10

trabuck7
Advocate
Advocate
Accepted solution

Create a new wire layer called JUMPER or include the word JUMPER in a wire layer and assign that new wire type to your power rail. The word JUMPER is ignored by TSE. Let us know if that gives you the desired results.


Tyler Rabuck
Electrical Engineering Technician
Message 3 of 10

testsubject
Advisor
Advisor

I like to be graphical.

I do what Tyler suggests with the JUMPER layers. In addition, I draw the jumpers differently from regular wires.
My ladders are vertical (YMMV)
All "wires" enter the terminal on the left or right.
All Jumpers (both internal [dashed] and external [solid]) are connected top and bottom. (Magenta lines)
I also draw the external jumper so that it "looks" like a comb with the connection being a 45 degree wire.

I never use the jumper part of the TSE.

Here is an example:

testsubject_0-1642003411819.png

 



Bob Hanrahan
Ace User since 1998
Autodesk Expert Elite Alumni
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Message 4 of 10

lmorganEUM38
Explorer
Explorer

Thank you @trabuck7, this seems like a straight forward solution. I was unaware of the JUMPER method.

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Message 5 of 10

lmorganEUM38
Explorer
Explorer

@testsubject, this seems like another great method, very easy to see what is going on with the rail without having to include a jumper table. Thank you.

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Message 6 of 10

tinkercad.comAFJQ3
Participant
Participant

Welcome to the club!

 

When each and everyone who stumbles upon your software implementation of a real-life VERY NORMAL situation and can't figure out for DOZENS of hours how to make it work in order to get consistent results.... That's a statement of a very poorly designed implementation IMHO.

 

Let me walk you through the way I find the best cost/benefit (visually great, relatively fast implementation and great TSE compatibility)

 

Imagine one 24V signal coming from a power supply needs to be "split" between numerous other components that need that power.

 

The elegant way of doing that in real life is to feed a terminal block with that "original source" 24V, add a bunch of extra terminal blocks to its side forming a terminal strip and jump them together with a proper terminal strip jumper.

 

My base-case scenario here is a "single-tier" terminal block strip like this:

image.png

In this case, the first terminal block is able to connect only one other component (TOP side is receiving the 24V source, therefore you are left with one spare connection at BOTTOM side), and every 1 other block gives you two new possible connections (because there is a jumper between them which is NOT using any of the available connections).

 

Back to my example:

image.png

 

 

Here you have three "splits". They could be achieved with 2 terminal blocks jumped together:

-terminal 1 TOP: 24v source

-terminal 1 BOT: 24v destination 1

-terminal 2 TOP: 24v destination 2

-terminal 2 BOT: 24v destination 3

Like this:

 

image.png

 

If you run TSE after drawing this (and not updating wires to be jumpers) you'll get:

-four terminals instead of 2 (because it counts each lil round terminal in your drawing as a full terminal block)

-a standard "two wires per screw" wiring set up (in most companies that's heresy!)

-a literal reading of your drawing's connections, as if your jumpers were actual wires jumping each terminal block

image.png

 

The way to read this table is assuming the following:

-LEFT side of TSE table is BOTTOM side of each terminal block.

-RIGHT side of the table is the TOP side

-each line is a wire

-each "L1" is a terminal (sometimes it throws two wires to the same side of a terminal, as if they were soldered or screwed together there) 

 

Now let's see what it's trying to represent there (follow the numbers):

1- Terminal block 1, at its TOP side, receives a wire FROM "24V Source" 

2- Terminal block 1, at its BOTTOM side, sends a wire TO another terminal of the same terminal strip "TB-24V". You can assume that's going to the very next terminal block (a literal "jumper").

3- Terminal block 2, at its TOP side, receives a wire FROM another terminal of the same terminal strip "TB-24V". You can assume that's coming from the previous block (jumper).

4- Terminal block 2, at its BOTTOM side, sends a wire TO our first destination 24V

5- Terminal block 2, still at its BOTTOM side (again, screwed or soldered together), sends a wire TO another terminal of the same terminal strip "TB-24V"

6- Terminal block 3, at its TOP side, receives a wire FROM another terminal of the same terminal strip "TB-24V". You can assume that's coming from the previous block (jumper).

7- Terminal block 3, at its BOTTOM side, sends a wire TO our second destination 24V

8- Terminal block 3, still at its BOTTOM side (again, screwed or soldered together), sends a wire TO another terminal of the same terminal strip "TB-24V"

9- Terminal block 4, at its TOP side, receives a wire FROM another terminal of the same terminal strip "TB-24V". You can assume that's coming from the previous block (jumper)

and finally 10- Terminal block 4, at its BOTTOM side, sends a wire TO our second destination 24V

 

tinkercadcomAFJQ3_7-1642148008085.jpeg

You can see that TSE by default will jump terminals together as if we were on a school science project:

tinkercadcomAFJQ3_8-1642148055408.jpg

 

..as if we needed to tap into "useful" screws or push-in/spring terminals in order to jump these all together.

Of course, this is ridiculous for any professional use, you now need to spend a hundred hours learning how to update your approach:

 

First, create a new wire layer, color it to something else that stands out and name it "JUMPER". Attribute the wires that represent the internal jumpers of your terminal strip. Like this:

image.png

 

Just by doing this, you'll notice TSE will instantly remove those redundant representations:

image.png

 

Of course, it's not smart enough to represent the actual jumpers, it's a step you need to manually perform (although it's not 100% necessary nor much useful, you could skip this):

image.png

 

still, it is using/calculating four terminals where you'd actually need only two (this error grows geometrically as your project can potentially have hundreds of terminal blocks.

 

The way to trick ACADE here is to upgrade your terminals to have levels that are equal the number of connections

This means all "single tier" terminal blocks would be a "2 levels" block. "Double tier" terminal blocks would have 4 levels:

tinkercadcomAFJQ3_11-1642149327878.png

 

Change this on the first block and copy/paste its properties to the other ones. You'll see now that each line represents not only the wires but also the different levels on each block (L1, L2, so on)

image.png

 

Now that we have two level terminals, we can use the "assign" tool to glue each two terminals together. You'll notice the terminals that lose the assignments become empty, or "spare" terminals. You can use the remove spares to get rid of them, or just reorganize everything by clicking on the table columns or manually moving them up and down.

image.png

Assignments done. Now delete the spares:

tinkercadcomAFJQ3_15-1642150748751.png

 

Here I've set a few new conventions - because TSE doesn't do any kind of "type check" for you. Each wire and each connection can be all over the place.

 

The way it works best for me is to always keep to the LEFT of the table the incoming/source signals, and to the RIGHT of the table the outgoing/destination signals. Notice I chose not to do any physical wire representation of TOP and BOTTOM like I was doing before. This would be way too detailed for the schematics I normally need to generate.

 

This is enough detailing for ACADE to correctly calculate the number of terminals your electrician needs, as well as represent them flawlessly on both your schematic and footprint pages:

tinkercadcomAFJQ3_16-1642150920745.png

 

Of course, here ACADE defaulted to an actual "tier 2" representation, so for the final touch you should assign part numbers to your terminals and make sure they have a matching footprint database / dwg in order to display your correct footprint drawing:

tinkercadcomAFJQ3_17-1642151162129.png

 

 

If you ever need to actually report each terminal and each wire coming in/out, just toggle their positions in the table, like such:

image.png

 

and you'll get the wiring represented like so:

tinkercadcomAFJQ3_18-1642151751643.png

 

Message 7 of 10

trabuck7
Advocate
Advocate

Excellent write up! This is exactly the process I use and try to teach others on how to accurately get the right count of terminals. It is quite a lot of work in the background. I've found that when it comes to terminals, they are one of the trickiest parts in any intelligent CAD systems, especially when you start introducing 'distributed' (showing a single terminal multiple times in your drawing) terminals. 

 

In vanilla AutoCAD, it's much easier to just place terminal symbols wherever you want to show a connection to a terminal, and then let the panel builders figure out the actual count needed, but then how accurate are your connection reports, BOMs, physical layouts, etc.? There is a lot of thought that needs to go into how you show terminals and 'trick' the software into how you they are actually represented in the real world. Any old drawing I've come across or seen is a combination of electrical schematic drawings and circuit board drawings. Meaning, there are common bus rails and the engineers/designers just showed a connection to it wherever they needed. As we move and adapt our drawings to intelligent CAD, we can still do that by tricking the software, but you really have to think about how the panel is going to be wired in the real world and show that as close to 100% as possible, which can also make for really messy drawings as well, if you want your reports to be accurate.

 

In the example below, I have a very simple circuit drawn two ways. One is more representative in the real world than the other, however I have to manipulate the software different ways for each one in order to get the same results in the end. I'm more used to seeing drawings shown in the top circuit and prefer to draw them myself in the bottom circuit. The bottom circuit would be much easier to troubleshoot since I know exactly how the panel should have been wired. A panel builder looking at the top circuit would have no idea  that the two push buttons would be wired back to the same terminal under one connection point and that I want to have the pilot light neutrals wired back to one terminal the same way. This of course gets a lot harder to manage when your schematics are more than a few pages and terminal types. This also makes it difficult for you to hand a project off to someone else if they are unfamiliar with your workflow or even how you set everything up in the first place - call it job security if you want, but I think this is a big downfall for anyone who hasn't used an intelligent CAD system before. The results are great, but you need to understand how to get those results, and they don't appear by magic. 

 

example.jpg

 


Tyler Rabuck
Electrical Engineering Technician
Message 8 of 10

tinkercad.comAFJQ3
Participant
Participant

But then what you want in your second circuit is to actually only have one single tier terminal block that receives your CB-1 wire on the TOP side and sends it to two wires screwed together on the BOTTOM side?
or is it representing a, say, double tier feedthrough terminal?

My point is, I wouldn't ask a technician to wire 18 AWG wires together at the same side of the terminal. I want them to include extra terminals and jump them "internally" so that you'd have only one wire in each screw. The ONLY way I figured I could have both terminal count right and representation is the way I described above.

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Message 9 of 10

trabuck7
Advocate
Advocate

Yes, I am showing just a single terminal for each in my second diagram.  It's common for us to physically have two wires under one screw because that's the old-school mentality (that needs to go away).

 

I can almost certainly guarantee a lot of terminals are not typically rated for more than one wire per connection point unless the wire size is small enough. That's too many use cases that I don't want to keep track of with every single conductor. I would prefer a single wire per terminal but I have to draw what those in positions higher than me tell me how things are to be done.  😑

 

I think we can all agree that what you have detailed is the only way to achieve this and I think there is a lot of room for improvement in AcadE on how this can be achieved automatically. 


Tyler Rabuck
Electrical Engineering Technician
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Message 10 of 10

Nathan_Leiter
Explorer
Explorer

You might mention to "those in positions higher than" you, that the NEC requires only one wire per terminal. 
110.14(a): "Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used to connect aluminum shall be so identified." 
Since most terminals don't have a label saying "this terminal is rated for multiple conductors", most terminals are only allowed one conductor each. 

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