Custom Layers for Partial Installation Drawings

[Robert.Siegle]

The company that I work for mainly creates contract drawings for industrial control upgrades, i.e., drawings contain existing equipment and new equipment for installation.  Our contract drawings must conform to a CAD standard that includes everything being on particular layers as described in the standard.  That means that existing equipment is on a different layer than new equipment for installation.  Is this possible with AutoCAD Electrical without breaking the AutoCAD Electrical functionality?  From what I have found so far, it looks like moving objects off of the ACADE standard layers (i.e. SYMS, TAGS, WIRENO, DESC, etc.) will either break things or everything will revert back to the ACADE layers when rebuilding the database.

Attached is an example schematic drawing where I wish to place the circuits in between the terminal blocks on an "installation" layer and the rest of the drawing on an "existing" layer.  The "installation" layer is typically bold and red in color.  The "existing" layer is typically screened.

How do other people utilize AutoCAD Electrical to create installation drawings that contain existing equipment?

@rhesusminus 

@dougmcalexander 

@jseefdrumr 

I have seen a lot of post from you guys, your input on this would be very appreciated.

We typically use Microstation for all of our drawings but I am trying to get us to move towards AutoCAD Electrical.  If I can't resolve this issue though I might be stuck with Microstation.

[jseefdrumr]

I'm fairly certain you can make this work.

As you're aware, ACADE automatically inserts certain parts of any component block into their own layers, while the block itself goes on yet another layer. This also goes for footprint blocks. These layer assignments can indeed be changed. Since you're concerned with the separation of 'existing' vs. 'new', you will also need to pay attention to lineweight assignments.

Judging from your post, it sounds like your plotted lineweights are controlled by the object's assigned color. For that, you will have to actually change assigned colors directly in the Layer Manager on a layer by layer basis. (If you do this type of thing a lot, you could set up a drawing template (.dwt) that already has the proper colors for your layers.)

As for the layer assignments, you can change them on a project or drawing level.
*For schematic components: Go to either Drawing Properties or Project Properties. On the last tab in the dialog, 'Drawing Format', you'll find a button in the bottom right corner that will allow you to change the layer names for component blocks.
*For panel footprints: Select the 'Panel' palette and go to Other Tools>Configuration. In this dialog, you'll see a button on the upper right side that is for changing layer names for panel drawings.

For a fuller explanation, check out 'To Work With Component Layers' in HELP. And you can always reply to your post if you need more clarification.

Hope this helps,

[Robert.Siegle]

@jseefdrumr Thanks for the quick response.

I'm familiar with defining layers assignment for components but I believe that those changes will only effect components added after the layer assignments are changed.  If that is the case, then I would have to first define the layer assignments for "existing" components and insert all existing components into the drawing.  Then change the layer assignments for "new" components and insert all the new components into the drawing.  Is there a way to do this after all components have already been inserted into the drawing?

Also, will having similar block attributes scattered across different layers cause any problems with the AutoCAD Electrical toolset?  For example, some component tags will be on the TAG layer and other component tags will be on another layer?

[jseefdrumr]

Maybe I jumped in a little quick there.

If you have to separate layers to the extent that you'll need one for 'existing tags' and another for 'new tags', then this might not be doable. I spoke from the perspective of not having to actually draw the existing stuff...I'm used to using XREFs to show that, which gives me all the layer control I need for how we do things.

You may be able to do something similar, but it would mean keeping the 'existing' things on a separate drawing. You would then XREF that drawing into the one that has the 'new' things. I'm not sure that would work for the standard you're being asked to follow.

Does this standard go so far as to break down which layers the tags, descriptions, and so forth are assigned to? Would it be enough to just have the symbol for new/existing components to be on their respective layers?

[Robert.Siegle]

Our standard layers are fairly simple, it is basically one layer for graphical objects and another for text objects.  This goes for each of the three scenarios, existing, new, and demo items.  We can and often do use Xrefs in the manner that you are talking about when developing drawings manually using vanilla AutoCAD.  If I Xref the existing stuff into the drawing then the AutoCAD Electrical toolset won't work on it.  I was hoping to be able to find a way to develop installation drawings (existing and new equipment) using AutoCAD Electrical to generate the point-to-point wiring for me.  From what you have said and other things that I have seen, it looks like this isn't possible.

[rhesusminus]

I'm just really, really, really busy right now, but I'd love to take a look at this...

[ramesh.kambang]

Hi Robert, 

I would like to share my working practices. I produce large scale (100+) drawings for very complex avionics / electrical system integration for aerospace industry. I use point to point wiring diagram method.  All new wires and equipment (component) needs to be integrated or interfaced with the existing systems. Hence my drawings have new wires / components, existing wires / components and provisional wires / components on a drawing  sheet or spread across the various sheets. You have exactly the same arrangement as mine. 

My drawing setup:

• I use acade default layers ie I dont change default layers (SYMS, TAGS, WIRENO, DESC, etc.)
• I create new layers for existing wires and provisional wires. 
• I create (new) symbols for existing components (dashed or screened), connectors, terminals, relays, switches, etc
• New wires and components will have solid lines as default. 
• I turn wire number off for the existing wires unless I want it to. 
• Tagging for the existing components will be per existing system (enter manually), for new components per project or system number or system code (enter automatic or manually). 

I create various reports using acade functionality. all xrefs and reports work fine. 

I hope this helps. 

[jseefdrumr]

@rhesusminus, I'd love for you to find time to chip in on this one. I really feel like there's a solution here and that I just don't know enough to get Robert all the way there.

I am thinking that you *could* do some of what's needed by combining two separate projects, one for 'existing' and one for 'new' ... and then XREF the existing drawings into the new ones. Two separate projects would allow you to reassign your layers as required, so you can accommodate text for 'existing' and text for 'new' etc. Plotted output would probably be just what you want. But you'd have the added chore of maintaining two projects, updating them separately, etc. However, this might be a start towards some overall solution.

As you noted, certain aspects of ACADE functionality won't work on the referenced file. For instance, you couldn't number an 'existing' wire while you're looking at it from the 'new' drawing. Neither could you land a new component on it - ACADE wouldn't see the wires in the XREF as an actual wire.

So, my next thought was maybe this could be made to work by showing only the existing components in the 'existing' drawings. Then you would draw all your wiring in the 'new' drawings. (Which of course would only work if there is no requirement to separate 'existing' and 'new' wires by layer.) Or, you could trace over the existing wiring in the XREF. But it would still be troublesome to land wires on anything that is in the referenced file; ACADE wouldn't know to end the wire at that symbol, because it's referenced. If you needed to use From/To wire reports, they wouldn't work because they wouldn't pick up the components in the referenced drawing. BOMs would have to be generated separately in each project and then combined. These and other things would need to be addressed, depending on your overall needs in the final project.

I want to say we can devise an overall solution. But I really think my approach will only get you part way there. One thing's for sure, you're not making this happen without having to do some massaging with workflow, or perhaps even some level of coding. I don't think it's impossible, I just think that it will come down to how many hoops you'll end up having to jump through vs how much time and will you have to jump through them.

If you want to keep chasing this rabbit down the hole, though, keep posting back and I or someone else can help you iron out the wrinkles. It's hard to say yet if it will be a short trip or a full-on wonderland adventure. But so far, it doesn't look impossible.

[Robert.Siegle]

@ramesh.kambang Thanks for sharing your workflow, although I don't completely understand it.  It seems that you are creating the same type of drawings that I need, i.e. integrating new with existing.  It appears that you are distinguishing your new from existing equipment with color and line type overrides but not layer correct?  With this method you are still able to have ACADE generate your point-to-point wiring drawings for your new to existing equipment.

Although it seems that what you are doing would not fit the standard that I am required to follow it would be helpful to know exactly how someone using ACADE to show integrating new to existing equipment and utilize the ACADE toolset to generate the point-to-point wiring for that integration.    Could you please elaborate on your workflow a little more?

[Robert.Siegle]

@jseefdrumr  @rhesusminus  I would love to chase this down the rabbit hole with your help.  I don't mind jumping through hoops to get this to work.  Creating point-to-point wiring drawings manually is a very time consuming task so as long as jumping through whatever hoops there are takes less time, this would be very helpful for me.  As an added bonus, if we find a way to make this work I can hopefully convince management to ditch the dreaded Microstation!

To state my problem again, I need a way to produce drawings that show existing stuff (Components, wires, terminals, etc.) on one layer and new stuff on a separate layer then utilize ACADE to generate point-to-point wiring drawings while still maintaining the existing and new layer separation.

You all have far more knowledge than I do about this so I'm relying on you but to help minimize your effort you can shoot ideas at me to try and I will report back with what I find.

Again, I greatly appreciate any and all help with this.

[rhesusminus]

First question.
Do you need to turn existing/new stuff on and off? This would be eady with layers. But I don't think layers is the way to go...

[Robert.Siegle]

We don't typically have a need to turn these layers off.

We have a company CAD standard that was built primary around the use of vanilla Microstation and to some extent AutoCAD.  This standard requires that existing and new stuff be on different layers.  The "existing" layers are screened gray while "new" layers are red with a heavier line weight.

I suppose if there is a good workflow for using ACADE while distinguishing the existing from new while maintaining the current appearance properties in the standard but not the layers then I could try to present that to management as an alternative since we are using a new product.

[ramesh.kambang]

See my comments in RED

@ramesh.kambang Thanks for sharing your workflow, although I don't completely understand it.  It seems that you are creating the same type of drawings that I need, i.e. integrating new with existing.  It appears that you are distinguishing your new from existing equipment with color and line type overrides but not layer correct?  With this method you are still able to have ACADE generate your point-to-point wiring drawings for your new to existing equipment.

Correct, I use dashed lines to show existing wires (create existing wire layer). As I mentioned in my previous post, I also create existing component symbols (with dashed lines - dynamic and intelligent) as acade symbols library doesn't have symbols with dashed lines. acade symbols out of the box have solid lines, I use them as new component or equipment.  

Yes, using this method I can create point to point wiring diagram using acade full functionality and run all reports I want because the existing wires / components and new wires / components are not controlled / distinguished by the layers, they are distinguished by the line type I have defined. acade doesn't really care what type of line or block (for component) I am using, it only cares about the electrical attributes / intelligence within the block or line.

Although it seems that what you are doing would not fit the standard that I am required to follow it would be helpful to know exactly how someone using ACADE to show integrating new to existing equipment and utilize the ACADE toolset to generate the point-to-point wiring for that integration.    Could you please elaborate on your workflow a little more?

Layer option is not best way to  distinguish new wires / components from existing component / wires. This is old way of doing things. This method is mainly used in the standard autocad/ e.g. show house floorplan, show/hide electrical or plumbing system.  I use layer on/off option only for classified Projects where I show only coded letter / numbers and hide all DESC layers (i use scripts to turn on/off layers project-wide). I keep acade default layer arrangement unchanged. Advantage of this, I don't need to change layer settings when I upgrade acade or reset to default settings.

[ramesh.kambang]

@ramesh.kambang Thanks for sharing your workflow, although I don't completely understand it.  It seems that you are creating the same type of drawings that I need, i.e. integrating new with existing.  It appears that you are distinguishing your new from existing equipment with color and line type overrides but not layer correct?  With this method you are still able to have ACADE generate your point-to-point wiring drawings for your new to existing equipment.

Correct, I use dashed lines to show existing wires (create existing wire layer). As I mentioned in my previous post, I also create existing component symbols (with dashed lines - dynamic and intelligent) as acade symbols library doesn't have symbols with dashed lines. acade symbols out of the box have solid lines, I use them as new component or equipment.  

Yes, using this method I can create point to point wiring diagram using acade full functionality and run all reports I want because the existing wires / components and new wires / components are not controlled / distinguished by the layers, they are distinguished by the line type I have defined. acade doesn't really care what type of line or block (for component) I am using, it only cares about the electrical attributes / intelligence within the block or line.

Although it seems that what you are doing would not fit the standard that I am required to follow it would be helpful to know exactly how someone using ACADE to show integrating new to existing equipment and utilize the ACADE toolset to generate the point-to-point wiring for that integration.    Could you please elaborate on your workflow a little more?

Layer option is not best way to  distinguish new wires / components from existing component / wires. This is old way of doing things. This method is mainly used in the standard autocad/ e.g. show house floorplan, show/hide electrical or plumbing system.  I use layer on/off option only for classified Projects where I show only coded letter / numbers and hide all DESC layers (i use scripts to turn on/off layers project-wide). I keep acade default layer arrangement unchanged. Advantage of this, I don't need to change layer settings when I upgrade acade or reset to default settings.

[ramesh.kambang]

When I get a chance I will create a demo drawing in the next post. 

[rhesusminus · Accepted solution]

We really shouldn't mess around too much with the layers, but we can always change the properties of the objects directly. They don't have to reflect the properties of the layer.

So, I would make three VBA macros for this.

1. change selected objects' color to "Existing things mode"
2. change selected objects' color to "New things mode"
3. Reset selected objects' color to "ByLayer"

[jamorrison]

When I look at an existing drawing I had, and just change the layer of the symbol from SYMS to say SYM-E and the symbol changes color to the color of that layer. (that is, if your original block was created on layer 0, as it should be)  All the other functionality stays the same, it seems. Now for the insertion of the symbol form the Icon Menu, it will still put it on SYMS, and you would have to manually change the layer to the other one.  This could be done pretty fast across the drawing, and seems easy enough.  If the colors of the existing and new layers are unique, it would be easy to tell on the screen quickly what is new and existing. I did not see that it hurt anything, or am I missing something?

[rhesusminus]

What about the ATTRIBUTES? They're not on the SYMS layer, but TAG, DESC etc.

[jamorrison]

I was thinking that if the layer of the block is okay, it would still work for them.  You would still be able to freeze the SYM-E layer and the whole block would go away...  Not sure if that would be enough to meet their standard.  Depends how they use the layers.  Even for plotting, the block lines would be bolder or lighter, and the text behavior would stay the same, but it could maybe work.  Again depends how they use the layers and plot the layers.

[Robert.Siegle]

@jamorrison Just changing the layer of the component graphic would not be enough, all the other attributes also need to share the same properties as the "install" layer.

@rhesusminus I think just changing the color of the objects as you suggest is likely my best bet.  It will give me the correct look, it just won't meet the layering portion of the standard.  The only real overhead would be creating the new blocks with everything set to byBlock rather than the default byLayer so a change in color would take effect.

[ramesh.kambang]

My existing blocks have their own line type, colour and layers, all settings come with the block when I insert it. I don't need to worry about the drawing layers etc. Only the layer create on a drawing is "Existing Wire" (dashed line, brown colour). Wire numbering I turn off / on depending on projects. This way I draw / show both existing and new wires / components / equipment on a drawing maintaining acade full functionality.