B-size to D-size

[pfarzaneh]

Hi,

I have a question about paper size. My boss has decided to print drawings on D-size paper. Our company is in the automation industry, and the reason for this decision is to reduce the number of pages and make the drawings more readable. We also want to avoid having too many sources and arrows.

What is the best way to address components and show pins, such as PLCs, on D-size paper? How can I fit 30 pages of B-size drawings into 2 or 3 D-size pages? Do you have any ideas?

Additionally, what is the standard size for electrical drawings? My boss mentioned that all good companies use large pages, so I would appreciate it if you could provide a reference for this.

Can anyone also send me some electrical drawings in D-size so i can see how they do it.

Thank you! 

[arshdeepsingh404]

Hi @pfarzaneh 

Fit 30 pages of B size drawings to 3 D size pages?

ANSI size D is just double of ANSI size B, so you be able to fit 4 B size drawings on one D size paper without scaling.

ANSI A - 8.5 X 11 inches (215.9 x 279.4 millimeters)
ANSI B - 11 x 17 inches (279.4 x 431.8 millimeters)
ANSI C - 17 x 22 inches (431.8 x 558.8 millimeters)
ANSI D - 22 x 34 inches (558.8 x 863.6 millimeters)
ANSI E - 34 x 44 inches (863.6 x 1117.6 millimeters)

I haven't seen electrical drawings printed on a D-Size Paper (22in x 34in). This paper size is little too big to fit on most of the standalone machine enclosures.

Since D is just double of B, In theory you could draw on D size title block and print it on B size paper with half the scale and it would still look good, provided your symbol and font size are still readable.

The default NFPA demo project that comes with AutoCAD Electrical is setup on ANSI D size Title Block.

C:\Users\UserName\Documents\Acade 2025\AeData\Proj\NfpaDemo

The standard that I have seen most companies using in Canada is to create drawings on ANSI A (Letter size paper) or merge two drawings on one and use a ANSI B size paper.

[pfarzaneh]

Thanks a lot for your response. The issue is that he wants me to redo the drawings from scratch and change them to D-size. Initially, he asked for E-size, but now he believes D-size is better for readability and reducing mistakes. He mentioned it’s easier for the shop floor team, but I find it less logical and portable, especially for troubleshooting.

It seems I have no choice but to follow his instructions. Therefore, I would appreciate your advice on the best way to address components and how to handle wire tags and addressing wires (source and destination) according to standards. This is the first time I’ve received such a request, so any guidance would be helpful!

[Thomas.CoxTFXY8]

Just to mention if you send drawings out to your clients most of them do not have the larger  printers now days.

[pfarzaneh]

I also mentioned that but he said we gonna send them in pdf!

[arshdeepsingh404]

What kind of reference you currently have in your drawings (X-Y Grid / X Zones / Refence numbers)? Can you post a sample snip?

Are you planning to fit 1 title block on the D-Size drawing or multiple?

[dougmcalexander]

AutoCAD Electrical requires that there only be one WD_M block and/or WD_PNLM block per drawing file.  That means one drawing border and one title block.  You could cause confusion for automated features if you place multiple drawings, each with its own border and title block, in one file.

That said, if you use only one WD_M block, and multiple ladders, you could let the ladder line reference numbers create the uniqueness of wire numbers, component identification, and cross-references.  It’s just that all ladders on the drawing will be associated with one page number and one title block.

I use a D-size drawing border and scale the plot to fit B-size paper.  Why?  The component symbols in the JIC and NFPA symbol libraries are made to fit a D-size format.  The software dates back to the era when D-size was standard.  So the symbols were sized for ANSI D-size. There is a tool in the software to scale all symbols down by 0.5, so that fit a B-size border.  But I prefer to design on a D-size border and plot to fit B-size paper. 

[arshdeepsingh404]

Hi @dougmcalexander 

It is always great to hear your insights. We use all custom symbols for Size B but I have always wondered why NFPAdemo is setup like that (Title Block for D and Plot to B). Now I know! Thanks 👍

[pfarzaneh]

Thanks for your response. I’m planning to do the entire drawing for a machine in just a few pages (2 or 3 pages). However, I remember the minimum spacing is around 2 inches, and the problem is that components like PLCs have too many pins. We also use a bunch of drives, each with its own pins. Addressing these pins and linking them is an issue in itself.

On the other hand, my boss suggested creating a table for pin addresses (terminal list). I would like to know how big companies manage to do the same drawing on just one page. How do they address so many pins, wire tags, component tags, etc.? I know I can divide my drawing into zones, but how can I compress 30 pages into 2 pages?

Currently, I divide the component’s pins into two categories: power pins and I/O pins. On the first page, I show the power pins and how they connect to the power source. However, the problem is with the I/O pins—there are too many, and we use almost all of them! If you have a sample drawing, I would appreciate it if you could share it.

[pfarzaneh]

you can check the reference here

[dougmcalexander]

I don’t know why your boss thinks that “big companies” put multiple drawings on one D-size page.  Maybe you work in an industry I have never encountered in my travels.  I’ve been designing since 1988 and I have taught AutoCAD Electrical around the world. I don’t recall ever seeing that.  And my customers make everything from aircraft, ships, and cars, to roller coasters and baby diapers.  

In Europe, and other parts of the world, A3 and A4 size paper is the norm.  One drawing per page.  They like the title for each page to indicate the circuit on the page.  Page 1 might be a drawing list, page two might be power distribution, page 3 might be a PLC processor, page 4 might be a PLC input module, page 5 might be another PLC input module, etc.  Maybe by page 8, I start the PLC output modules.  Maybe by page 12 I show motor control 1, and page 13 is motor control 2, etc.  Then comes the panel layout drawings and finally the parts list (BOM), wire list, etc.  i see this same style in North America, but on B-size drawings.

In North America the norm was D-size, back when plotters ruled. I have even plotted to E-size, for panel layout drawings.  But when laser printers took over, the norm became B-size. AutoCAD Electrical was around just prior to that transition.  So the JIC and NFPA symbols natively fit nicely into a D-size space.  I use a D-size border. I could plot to a D-size plotter, if requested. But most companies in North American want B-size.  So I scale my plots to fit a B-size.  Everything scales down by 0.5.  The text still meets the ANSI minimum of 0.0625 inches for a B-size plot.

[dougmcalexander]

I don’t know why your boss thinks that “big companies” put multiple drawings on one D-size page.  I’ve been designing since 1988 and I have taught AutoCAD Electrical around the world. I recall ever seeing that.  And my customers make everything from aircraft, ships, and cars, to roller coasters and baby diapers.  

In Europe, and other parts of the world, A3 and A4 is the norm.  One drawing per page.  They like the title for each page to indicate the circuit on the page.  Page 1 might be a drawing list, page two might be power distribution, page 3 might be a PLC processor, page 4 might be a PLC input module, page 5 might be another PLC input module, etc.  Maybe by page 8, I start the PLC output modules.  Maybe by page 12 I show motor control 1, and page 13 is motor control 2, etc.  Then comes the panel layout drawings and finally the parts list (BOM), wire list, etc.

In North America the norm was D-size when plotters ruled. But when laser printers took over, the norm became B-size. AutoCAD Electrical was around just prior to that transition.  So the JIC and NFPA symbols natively fit nicely into a D-size space.  I use a D-size border. I could plot to a D-size plotter, if requested. But most companies in North American want B-size.  So I scale my plots to fit a B-size.  Everything scales down by 0.5.  The text still meets the ANSI minimum of 0.0625 inches for a B-size plot.

[pfarzaneh]

I agree, but he is insisting. Right now, my drawings are on ledger-sized paper, and I can divide each component according to its function. However, this apparently doesn’t meet his satisfaction! Since I’m new, I couldn’t provide him with enough justification. you can see my B-size design in file attached, as you see there are source and arrow and he thinks this makes confusion for people on shop-floor!

[pfarzaneh]

Something else just popped into my mind. Do you guys know any reference or article that shows ledger size has more benefits and priority over other sizes, with explanations? I could use it as a reference.

[pendean]

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@pfarzaneh wrote:

Something else just popped into my mind. Do you guys know any reference or article that shows ledger size has more benefits and priority over other sizes, with explanations? I could use it as a reference.

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That's going to be a pointless exercise for someone adamant on getting what they asked for: focus on getting them the D-size they want instead.

[pfarzaneh]

You are right, but my team lead wants it because he thinks it’s wrong too. He wants to bring it up in a meeting! Because it’s a really time-consuming project, my boss wants all the drawings in D-size. There are more than 100 drawings!

[rhesusminus]

Let me guess... Your boss is a mechanical guy?

He's never tried to troubleshoot an electrical project in the field? It's easier with a book of smaller sheets than having some large sheet you have to fold out over a table. PDF is all well but zooming around on your phone/tablet when troubleshooting isn't ideal.

Unfortunately there's no documentation that says you have to do it like this. I'm not a fan of "we've always done it like this", but in this case I'm pretty sure that there's a reason to why everyone does it like this.

[pfarzaneh]

Exactly😅. He is mechanical, and it’s a struggle in the company right now. And he always says "big companies do that, as I remember!" Anyway, I already proposed my drawing three months ago, but I have to create all the blocks again because he wants it the way he likes. My colleagues and supervisor are trying to find a way to convince him it’s a waste of time because we are so behind on our projects. So I thought maybe you guys have some ideas, either on how to convince him or how to do it properly.