C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

[Neilw_05]

It appears we can no longer create Point Clouds within Civil 3D as of 2018 release. The workflow now is to use Recap to create the cloud and then attach it to C3D. I tried to create a Point Cloud in Recap using the 3 Elevation formats available from the National Map (Grid, Float and IMG). None of these formats are supported in Recap. So what is the workflow to get the elevation data sets into C3D? I know we can add a grid file to a surface in C3D but we need to filter the data first to make the resulting surface usable. 

[tcorey]

This is really cool of you, Terry. Thanks!

[ramesh_sridharan]

Guys,

One of the reason, old version of point cloud capability got removed is to pave way to handle some new high resolution datasets that is apt for design than old coarse airborne point clouds. Having said that there are still two ways to get the point cloud and generate surface in Civil3D.

1. ReCap-InfraWorks Route - Works well in general especially for high resolution point clouds like mobile/static and UAVs

    a. Use Recap to generate RCS file or RCP project 

    b. Use infraworks to generate clean terrain and corresponding ground points (if needed). This currently also has breakline extraction capability to augment the design surface with details

    c. Bring the surface (and breaklines) directly into C3D

2. ReCap-C3D Route

   1. Users can still load/insert RCS file directly in C3D and run "Create Surface From Pointcloud" tool to generate ground. Works best in general, including the cases like coarse grids discussed in this thread.

The purpose of having recap into the mix is to generate one format, RCS/RCP, that can go into different Autodesk products. RCS/RCP file is indexed and designed to store and handle point cloud efficiently.

I noticed one more point in this thread that there are cloud credits to generate RCS from LAS whihc is not the case. Even Recap free version can create RCS/RCP without any problem with varuous different common point cloud formats including pts, ptx, e57, fls, las, etc.

Hope this helps and let us know if you need more detail/information.

[BlackBox_]

We're not entirely dependent on this BS ReCrappy workflow anymore, thanks to @TerryDotson: http://dotsoft.com/blog/?p=508

Now, as to your post, @ramesh_sridharan - 

Removing functionality for lower resolutions data sets does not pave the way for newer larger data sets; this is not intellectually honest.  While I believe that it is not your intention to deceive, your statements are incorrect.

A executive said to remove this native functionality from Civil 3D to force users to consume your new product - that's not necessarily a bad thing - its just that this new thing isn't mature enough to be a professional design tool yet, and you (Autodesk plural) haven't done a very good job of implementing this new thing as a service to Civil 3D called silently with switches, so user never has to leave Civil 3D and the existing buttons, etc. just get re-mapped to call this new thing instead of the old thing.

There is a way to do what you (Autodesk) want, and not screw users at the same time - there is a mutually beneficial solution - you (Autodesk) just elected to opt for the easier option which screws users over.  I don't believe that many Autodesk employees wanted that, I think one or more idiot executive(s) 'who shall not be named' made this call, and the rest of you would just like to keep your jobs, shaking your heads the same as we users do when something so preposterous is put out to market. Haha 

Cheers

[Anonymous]

Another workaround is to use MICRODEM which will read most of the elevation data formats you download from the National Elevation Dataset, then export as XYZ. From there let C3D grind away for a few hours to create a surface. You have to be aware of what coordinate system and units you are working in/with at both ends.

https://www.usna.edu/Users/oceano/pguth/website/microdem/microdemdown.htmhttps://www.usna.edu/Users/...

(he says as he searches for the best way to import an in-house LAS ...)

[tcorey]

One problem with XYZ is that it produces the largest file and the least efficient data type. LAZ, RCP and other point cloud formats are faster to work with. XYZ is fine for smaller data sets.

[tcorey]

Terry, I downloaded your point cloud tools. Thanks! These look similar to LAS Tools, but a user doesn't have to use the DOS window to run yours. That's a plus for many, especially our younger brethren (and sisteren, is that a word?), who were born after DOS had died.

I made a ribbon panel to make the commands easier to remember. It's not polished, no image icons, but I will post the cuix here if you would like. It might help others.

Thanks again. I know of several of my customers who will find this useful.

[TerryDotson]

Yes, there are some similarities but only scratches the surface of Martin Isenburg's LasTools.  He is aware of the project and the LasZipCli.exe is used with permission (wanted 100.00% compatible writes).  Feel free to post the CUIx and brief instructions on how to load it.  If you want it included in our blog post let me know (we'll credit you).

Also, add a new one for LIDARLIST which we will add today, that displays a detailed list of information about multiple selected LAS/LAZ files in a browser ready to print.

Myself I started when AutoCAD looked like this (even though that's not AutoCAD) and I use the command prompt 99.9% if the time. Over the years as interfaces have come and gone (like the Dashboard) the command line is one of life's few constants.

[cadtex]

Terry,

I downloaded the LidarTools and it worked great on C3D2017.

We had actually postponed the installation of Civil 3D 2018 in part because of the issue with creating surfaces from lidar.

With this tool I was able to convert our large .las file into a .laz file. It came out to be a tenth of the original size. I was also able to change the projection of the file and it came in to the correct place and elevation.

Thank you Terry,

[Anonymous]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the Point Cloud option in C3D is about putting the data into a container outside of the Autocad database?

We are starting to see more and more Drone data coming in the door and NO ONE...wants the projects to be pushed to the  .mMS level.

The whole purpose of pushing the data out was to increase regen speeds and productivity being lost to larger datasets and larger overall projects.

You start adding in your design work... Alignments, Sections, Pipe Networks, Corridors and the like, and you get a very complex project that can and will slow down proportionately. 

This feature was a godsend compared to the age-old method of working with COGO POINTS on the daily.

I hope this gets pushed to the top and someone makes the changes required to REAPPLY the method back into C3D through a patch.

Recap might be great for Municipal work, but its not a blanket option for every market. 

Someone prove to me (and I would like a solid demo) that I can use RECAP in the Mining Sector to continue my work process and improve my productivity.

I can be contacted directly for this demo and invite the conversation about methodology.

thank you.

[Neilw_05]

I am not opposed to a change in workflow as long as it provides an avenue to bring forward legacy data. I never did like the C3D point cloud technology.

[rogersame]

I agree with you, I hate when developers take out funcionalities on new software versions instead of jus adding new features and making hotfix of the existing ones, like the case of "Surface and image from Google Earth"

for you case of updating your surface with new point data, you could still do that, let say your existing surface is called "A" and the surface created from the new points "march", you just need to paste "march" into "A" and set the stlyle of "march" to no display.

[Anonymous]

I just noticed this issue.  I understand that may of the Autodesk products used by professionals are now under their entertainment division.

[Anonymous]

Just came in here to bitch along with everyone else here. What a joke of a change. Removing functionality from the program to make us use another product is nothing more than a marketing sham. I have been working with Point Clouds on and off for the last couple of years and I haven't needed ReCap for much, if anything just played with it. Sorry to say, but I really have no use for it and I don't very much like having a company force me to use it, let alone if it even works properly.

We discovered this issue last week after trying to bring some lidar data in 2018 and realizing the functionality was gone. We screwed around with ReCap for a bit only to continuously run into issues with coordinate systems failing to apply and couldn't get it to drop into the right place. Do you know what our solution is? Run C3D 2017, import to point cloud in a jiffy, build the surface, and then open it up on 2018. The point Cloud won't display, but at least we get the surface. And if/when that stops being able to work properly I have half a mind to look for non-ReCap workarounds. You want us to use your product? Make us want to, don't shove it down our throats.

What a joke. Be ashamed, be very ashamed.

[Anonymous]

Hello Autodesk?

I'm still waiting for my demo...

[ramesh_sridharan]

Hochanz, I sent you a message in this community chat/messaging few weeks back requesting your time for a session/discussion on this subject. Please feel free to contact me at ramesh.sridharan@autodesk.com

[ramesh_sridharan]

Connor,

The intention was not to make customers use new product. Recap basic version is free and it doesn't help in business sense anyways.

The main purpose was to bring everything down to one (better) lidar engine and have a simple workflow. After discussing with multiple customers, we added capabilities in AEC collections that makes best use of point clouds with relatively less effort. 

You should not have having problems with Recap and you should not have have issue messing with point clouds. Please feel free to contact me ramesh.sridharan@autodesk.com so that I can let you know the current solution and understand your workflow to make the product better for your use.

Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Sorry Ramesh, but it not being your intention to make us use another product isn't a very good response when it does exactly that. Recap basic may be free and allow one to get by with point cloud insertion, but there are subscription based versions to buy. I can't imagine there isn't any intention/hope that people who start using basic may eventually upgrade to subscribed versions. It's really neither here nor there though.

Honestly I have no idea what a better lidar engine or capabilities in AEC collections even means. I'm sure you understand the increased functionality users have gotten, but I'm sure the bulk your users don't and won't realize whatever benefit you're claiming we got, so this is just going to continue to incite users. What happened to me last week was a co-worker called me asking if I had tried to use point cloud data in 2018 yet and when I said no he explained the functionality was gone (and, for the record, my reaction was along the lines of "What? No...this guy just doesn't know what he's---OH MY GOD"). I won't get into the whole song and dance but he was very frustrated, increasingly so because one of our clients upgraded to 2018 and sort of pushed it on our company so it further compounded his frustration that the reason he was even having these problems is because of one single client.

As for helping me fix the Recap issue let me counter you with this: Why would I bother? I already explained my workaround, and I don't really need the cloud except to make the surface. I have zero incentive to waste my time and figure out how to make Recap work properly when my current workaround is also using a secondary program, and because CAD versions are no longer talking with each other I have to keep multiple versions available on my computer anyways. I could just as well unisntall Recap and be done with it. Whether I use Recap or an earlier version of CAD right now is pretty close to splitting hairs for me.

My point here is simple: Real world application of what has transpired with the change is not going to be viewed as beneficial (especially in the short-term), it will just be viewed as a major hassle. The workflow won't be simple, people will upgrade to 2018 and try to do their workflow as they've always known it, and then realize it doesn't work and cause a headache for them and they will find that the "solution" will be to install a new program to do it for them. That will make exactly zero people happy.

[Anonymous]

By the way, this is what I get to see when trying to update our coordinate system in Recap. I read that this happens with indexed scans, but this is attempting to change the coordinate system immediately after opening Recap.

[ramesh_sridharan]

Connor,

Since Coordinate system (CS) conversion needs to change every single point (which can be expensive step given the number of points in laser file) which in turn affects the indexing of the data, also since user can bring (append) point clouds with different CS information (many time point cloud file by itself doesnt carry reliable source CS information) it is hard to keep track of them if user wants to change the CS after indexing. For these reasons (Recap team might have more reasons) CS assignment (as well as changing them) is designed to be at the time of the import. You can reimport the .las (or any other file format) you have, assign correct Source CS information, desired target CS information to get the correct RCS file for your use.

Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Am I still able to treat the point cloud as a surface that I can merge
created corridors into the model that I can then use to cut HEC-RAS
sections to export to Hec-RAS  for use in flow studies.
I tried RECAP but did not find it easy to get what I needed.
I found importing points as data sets and not use the point cloud. This
is the reason I keep using older versions that have not been upgraded
for my benefit.