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brian.dougherty
Posts: 17
Registered: ‎09-15-2011
Message 1 of 13 (977 Views)

BIM and civil 3D

977 Views, 12 Replies
02-22-2013 11:01 AM

I'm doing reseacrh for school about the inplematation of Civil 3D, infastructure, and commerical projects as a BIM project. Is there any blogs, forums, guides, etc. out there that help explain the process or capabilities of integrating the Civil 3D with revit or navisworks.

 

Any companies that are using this project for civil or infastructure projects. I know that BIm is leading the industry in structural projects. I need to find some information on civil capabilities.

 

thank you,

Brian Dougherty

LEED Green Associate

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neilyj
Posts: 3,477
Registered: ‎08-01-2008
Message 2 of 13 (933 Views)

Re: BIM and civil 3D

02-23-2013 02:04 AM in reply to: brian.dougherty
in my opinion civil 3d is not a bim tool and has a long way to go to get close to being one.
neilyj
(No connection with Autodesk other than using the products in the real world)


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Joe-Bouza
Posts: 4,493
Registered: ‎12-15-2008
Message 3 of 13 (898 Views)

Re: BIM and civil 3D

02-23-2013 05:32 PM in reply to: brian.dougherty

While you research that keep in mind all the magnificent edifices built with pencils, paper and less.:smileywink:

Thank you

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E. (one of 'THOSE' People) Civil 3D 2012 & 2013
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Note: Its all Resistentialism, so keep calm and carry on

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BrianHailey
Posts: 2,716
Registered: ‎04-27-2005
Message 4 of 13 (856 Views)

Re: BIM and civil 3D

02-24-2013 07:36 PM in reply to: brian.dougherty

What is BIM?

 

BIM à la Wikipedia

 

In short, modeling a building from start to end (planning to demolition) in an information rich environment that allows the stakeholders to communicate, coordinate, design, and operate in an efficient matter.

 

Architects, engineers, and contractors have begun to realize the benefit of using the BIM process (notice I didn’t say BIM software) when designing buildings and have started to want the civil side of the project to be a part of the BIM process.

 

The problem, as I see it, is that the dirt side (aka civil) and the wood side (aka architect) do things so completely differently from each other that bridging the gap between the two has been very difficult. There have been improvements though. Using the Bridge Design tools within Revit Structure, you can now import a surface directly into Revit but, if the surface changes, the import process has to be done again so that pretty much breaks down the BIM workflow.

 

If you are looking for a “Civil BIM Software” you are going to be disappointed with anything you find. Autodesk has a suite of software that does a good job of fitting within the “BIM for Civil” process. This is the closest thing out there to meet that definition that I'm aware of. It still has a long way to go to fully meet the definition of BIM in my opinion (I'm sure there are those that will disagree with me on both sides, "It's definitely BIM" and "It's definitely not BIM"). One of the problems is, there's no real definition of what BIM is on the dirt side.

 

I think the Autodesk Infrastructure Modeler (aka AIM) has a lot of potential to fill this gap. In its current state, there is no way it could ever be used for design but, because it's database driven (a .SQLite database to be specific) it has HUGE potential and I'm excited to see where Autodesk is going to take it.

 

These are my rambling thoughts on a snowy Sunday evening after teaching Civil 3D all week sick as a dog. Hopefully you'll be able to get a bit of information out of this.

 

For some more information, HERE is a link to the Autodesk website where they have some more information on BIM for Infrastructure.

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Neilw
Posts: 2,108
Registered: ‎09-04-2006
Message 5 of 13 (843 Views)

Re: BIM and civil 3D

02-24-2013 09:10 PM in reply to: BrianHailey

While Autodesk has made commendable efforts to integrate their products, it is especially apparent to C3D users that there are considerable problems with the current paradigm. C3D is not compatable with older versions of itself nor is it even integrated with Map or Autocad. Almost every interoperability workflow requires some sort of translation.

 

Brian, in regard to your comment: "if you are looking for a “Civil BIM Software” you are going to be disappointed with anything you find. Autodesk has a suite of software that does a good job of fitting within the “BIM for Civil” process. This is the closest thing out there to meet that definition that I'm aware of.", I'd like to note that Bentley has adopted a different paradigm with their products which makes them considerably more BIM centric. They have placed much more of the model intelligence in the core graphics engine (Microstation) which allows the intelligence to readily be shared across all the vertical products.

 

As a case in point, a surface model is a native cad element in Microstation. Thus an architect can XREF a drawing containing a civil site with a surface model, display and render it as needed, integrate his building model and see that surface model when he cuts sections through his building. Conversely, civil product users can reference a building model (and any other 3D cad model, including 3D symbols and underground structures) into their civil models and have them show up in their site and road cross sections. Since all of this intelligence is achieved with native CAD graphics, the data can be dynamically shared via references (XREFS), so there is no need for convoluted data sharing schemes nor for special plugins (i.e. object enablers) or file translation to view or consume the graphics. I won't go in to the new civil technology that is soon to be released, but suffice it to say it too will be similarly interoperable.

 

As this technology is new it's still early to make any concrete assesements about's pros and cons but potentially it should address the interoperability issues more effectively.

 

PS, Kudos to you for your dedication to assisting others with your experience and knowlege even when under the weather. Your posts are invaluable.

Neil Wilson (a.k.a. neilw)
Infrastructure Suite/C3D 2013, LDT 2004, Power Civil v8i SS1
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neilyj
Posts: 3,477
Registered: ‎08-01-2008
Message 6 of 13 (816 Views)

Re: BIM and civil 3D

02-25-2013 02:04 AM in reply to: Neilw

Neilw wrote:

While Autodesk has made commendable efforts to integrate their products, it is especially apparent to C3D users that there are considerable problems with the current paradigm. C3D is not compatable with older versions of itself nor is it even integrated with Map or Autocad. Almost every interoperability workflow requires some sort of translation.



...it would be great to be able to work in Civil 3D and use on alignment/simple polyline to create a buffer without having to go through the MAP rigmarole.

neilyj
(No connection with Autodesk other than using the products in the real world)


IDSP Premium 2014 (mainly Civil 3D 2014 UKIE SP1 & Infraworks with some limited 3ds Max Design)
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New Member
Posts: 1
Registered: ‎07-02-2012
Message 7 of 13 (759 Views)

Re: BIM and civil 3D

03-03-2013 08:46 PM in reply to: brian.dougherty

It's all about the people and the process.  Software is always going to have it's limits, it's about making it work for you.  We have been implementing Civil 3D/BIM/whatever you want to call in into site development projects (i.e. Building projects) for several years.  There is much value to be had in doing this.  Although Revit and Civil 3D don't talk together too well, it is good enough if you set it up to work for you and utilize Navisworks... and are working with building consultant individuals who have some sense of the civil world.  Unfortunately, that is rare.  But I don't blame them, the importance and complexity of a building compared to a site is much greater, so there is little care or attention given to a site.  So the civil engineer is on their own...

 

john

http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=57924746&trk=hb_tab_pro_top

 

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mikeevans
Posts: 737
Registered: ‎09-29-2008
Message 8 of 13 (736 Views)

Re: BIM and civil 3D

03-04-2013 05:13 AM in reply to: jprince

Agreed.

 

We are using Bim here on some contracts and it has become clear that when a client & Architect thinks of BIM what they really mean is Revit.

 

Our firm consists of Civil & Structural engineers and we use Civil3d for Civil & Revit for structure. I has been a very hard slog of trial and error to work between us in Revit & Civil 3d and educate the client & Architects about the definition of BIM and the software.

 

They expect us to do everything in one platform, kind of like trying to whisk and egg with a spoon. You'd use a fork wouldn't you? Some other companies are designing Drainage in Revit Structure but just because you can doesn't mean you should.

 

The revit guys cant use the Civil3d pipe networks without an Acis export, surfaces come into revit but unless they are "Flat" do not produce anything near what was designed in Civil 3d and as such are unusable due to the revit program logic. Working the other way around I can import their foundations or building but only as a 3d solid as the Site model export is not avaliable in Revit Structure. When I section this the results are truely awfull.

 

Corridor models are the only good one here, the corridor solid tool (If it works) does produce good results but without parametric data.

 

During this process of intergration we have learned some lessons which may be of assistance.

 

Surfaces in Revit. Explode and convert the faces to Regions then save them in a new file. In Revit import the surface as a Mass object Family. Now the surface looks correct and is sectionable and anotatable for the most part.

 

Pipes, Explode in a 3D view and export as a Acis Sat. Import into Revit as a Mass object family. Now the network is sectionable and anotatable for the most part.

 

Shared coordinates. Don't go there, if they change after the revit file was first create it cuases more hassle than it's worth. At the moment I reconmend to realign the Civil3d model to the Revit 0,0,0 project base point (selected from a model export or Grid intersection) prior to export and always include the grids in the model file export so that the Revit user can align the files.

 

Obviously in doing these workarounds you always loose the parametric data assigned to all the objects, which is not the goal here.

 

It seems that currently the only true way to work between the two programs in BIM is in Navisworks or simmilar BIM software platforms as When we say BIM What we really mean is Navisworks or a simmilar 4D/5D software application.

 

What we need is a Navisworks Import tool for each program then share the data through that.

 

M.

 

 

Mike Evans

Civil3D 2013 / 2014 British UK
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Posts: 2,501
Registered: ‎05-21-2008
Message 9 of 13 (727 Views)

Re: BIM and civil 3D

03-04-2013 06:33 AM in reply to: mikeevans

What is 4D / 5D ?


Credit where credit is due! Give kudos or accept as solution whenever you can.

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neilyj
Posts: 3,477
Registered: ‎08-01-2008
Message 10 of 13 (724 Views)

Re: BIM and civil 3D

03-04-2013 06:38 AM in reply to: troma

I presume 4D includes the time diemnsion and 5D includes the cost dimension (all relating to the XYZ to build the object in question)

neilyj
(No connection with Autodesk other than using the products in the real world)


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