Rendering Engines- Which is the best?

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Rendering Engines- Which is the best?

Anonymous
Not applicable
Ok, so to set up the reason why I am asking this question: A co-worker of mine at an architecture firm( summer interns) told me that I should not bother using mental ray at all any more because Maxwell Render is sooo much better he says. In fact, his attitude was a little sneery when I told him I use Mental ray or Radiosity to render my scenes for school. I got the impression that he was trying to make mental ray sound like its outdated and a has been software.

This is really the first time I have heard of this about mental ray. I have seen Maxwell render used on student projects and I didn't feel blown away by the results. Comparable yes. 'Sooo' much better? No. So I wanted to know what the latest trend was when it comes to rendering. Is maxwell the best out there now? Is it worth an investment of time and money because it is the wave of the future? Or is it just another option...

Thanks for your replies.
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Jeff_Patton
Advocate
Advocate
"Rendering Engines- Which is the best?" - The one that works best for you, not someone else. (and I'm being serious when I say that).

NOTE: I own copies of Maxwell, FryRender, Vray, and Brazil R/S. Maxwell is nice, but it's just another software option. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. It really all boils down to your own workflow and what works best for you.
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Anonymous
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hey Jeff, I've aaaaaalways wanted to ask you: why do you prefer mental ray? I mean, all your blog-entries and that latest short animation of the room with soft-self-illumination (nice work btw) is mental ray

Personally i'm a mental ray freak, but my knowledge goes untill VRay, not maxwell, nor brazil or any other render engine.

I chose mental ray cause I have the feeling it's going to only get better in a fast acceleration, and well.. it ships with max.

It's kind of redundant perhaps, but mental ray just seems the way to go.. and it doesn't kill my workflow

So what gives you mental ray? ^^
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Jeff_Patton
Advocate
Advocate
hey Jeff, I've aaaaaalways wanted to ask you: why do you prefer mental ray? I mean, all your blog-entries and that latest short animation of the room with soft-self-illumination (nice work btw) is mental ray
I guess for me, after pouring so much of my time into learning the in's and out's of mental ray it's just become a part of me & my own work-flow. I share mental ray tips/tricks on my blog entries, forum posts, training, etc.., not to benefit or push mental ray...but to simply help other users that have already chosen to use mental ray. (and hopefully bring me some good karma). 🙂

IMHO when put into the right hands, any renderer can produce amazing results. Just look through the online galleries of most any rendering software and you'll see stunning examples. Browse through the forums of the same applications and you'll probably see some mediocre results in addition to people complaining about certain issues with that application. That's just the nature of the beast...I don't see how any one solution could be perfect for everyone because we all do different things and work differently.

In my mind it's just silly for someone to 'talk smack' about a specific rendering application just because they had a bad experience with it, or it didn't fit into their own work flow. It's a bit like the Canon vs. Nikon or Ford vs. Chevy, rivalries...just because I prefer to use renderer "X" doesn't mean it'll be the best choice for you.

While teaching a class or talking to someone if I think a different renderer would work better for them, I'll make the suggestion...perhaps even show them the work flow of the other package so they can make an educated decision themselves....not because I think it may be better.

Keep in mind I generally don't recommend sitting back and just blindly plowing along with one solution forever. I think it's a good idea to get the demo's of the other packages from time to time and try them out to make sure the one you're currently using is the one that works best for you.

Just my thoughts of course. Nothing more, nothing less.
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matt_3d
Explorer
Explorer
Rather than start another thread I'd like to extend on the original question a little.

When it comes to animation, which is the better renderer? With stills 'Whatever works best for you' is a legitimate answer, as all the renderers are able to produce amazing results, but when it comes to animation, it's a different story all together. Not only are you after a nice looking image, but speed and 'smoothness' really comes into play. We currently use Vray at work, the majority of our output are still images so it works a treat, we have in the past produced some small animations and are moving towards rather large animations in the near future and have found that trying to get a flicker-free animation with reasonable speed is near impossible and quite time consuming to set up.

In the past I have worked with Maya/MR and experienced similar problems, more to do with 'splotchy' final gather than flickers. But with MR now integrated into Max we've started thinking about making the transition to MR. At the same time, Final Render is supposed to be fantastic with animations, yet a little more complex to learn.

With animation in mind, is there a 'preferred' renderer?

Thanks

Matt
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Anonymous
Not applicable
I really shouldn't be the one to answer the question, and I won't even be able to elaborate on it.
I'm kind of a newbie at mental ray, and I only just installed Vray at work, but...
We had a teacher at school who is a Vray MASTER. He had his own company where he managed his own renderfarm etc. etc. etc.
Point is, he knew how to use the renderers, not just how to turn up the settings.

When prompted with the usual "what is best" question (we had a half-serious war between Vray and Mental Ray) he said that Vray is just SO much faster for a single image,
but mental ray takes the lead after a bunch of frames...

So when it's mental ray vs. Vray, mental ray is the animation master.

Problem with mental ray is that you ahve to use so high settings to get good results (compared to Vray that is...)...

So conclusion would be: Mental ray could easily be the solution for rendering animation, but handling it optimally requires a different way of thinking than Vray...
Wow... Now I just hope I'm right :S
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Anonymous
Not applicable
i'm not even going to try and defend either mental ray or vray; the point is (like jeff already stated) that render engines require a certain workflow, just like you have one in modelling and in photoshop.

my mental ray driven engine is because of the mr_photographic_exposure_controll, the A&D shader, and because it ships with max and therefore will be less likely to crash, since VRay is a 3d party application, there is a number of new factors involved to lead at max startup etc...

If you say vray is faster for a single image, so be it, I know I'm faster with mental ray then vray and mental ray treats me nicer then vray.

this will be otherway around for other people, depending on your workflow.

when people have a go at render engines, I feel they're more likely having a go at eachothers way or working in max, their workflow being, rather then the engine itself.
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Anonymous
Not applicable
I have always felt that incredible results can be achieved using nearly any render engine.

I would agree with Boomerang that the engine choice is based more the workflow that makes sense to you.

I dont see how Mental Ray can be quicker at animation, and VRay faster at single images, but I guess that it why I am not a "VisMaster".

All you can really do is play around with each of them, and see which one you like the best. What exactly is "sooo" much better about Maxwell according to your friend?

After you smack him for making a snide comment, point him to the gallery on this, and other sites(such as evermotion.org), and show him some work done using MR/VRay/Maxwell/FryRender/Brazil. I personally am not a big fan of Maxwell.

I would have to say, at least among my experience, that in the ArchVis industry Vray has been the most popular render engine. Autodesk is, however, putting A LOT of time into MentalRay, just check out some of the tutorials with 3ds2009.
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Anonymous
Not applicable
I almost forgot to add that Maxwell can run on Linux, which is a plus.
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Anonymous
Not applicable
i'm not even going to try and defend either mental ray or vray; the point is (like jeff already stated) that render engines require a certain workflow, just like you have one in modelling and in photoshop.

my mental ray driven engine is because of the mr_photographic_exposure_controll, the A&D shader, and because it ships with max and therefore will be less likely to crash, since VRay is a 3d party application, there is a number of new factors involved to lead at max startup etc...

If you say vray is faster for a single image, so be it, I know I'm faster with mental ray then vray and mental ray treats me nicer then vray.

this will be otherway around for other people, depending on your workflow.

when people have a go at render engines, I feel they're more likely having a go at eachothers way or working in max, their workflow being, rather then the engine itself.


Well he (and I) meant that calculation-time-wise, one engine's algorithm/calculation method for GI stuff is faster pr. frame vs. pr. single calculation for same scene and same "level of quality"... You know... different approaches under the hood, more than behind the wheel 😉

Personally I feel at home in mr, and I only started using Vray because mental ray doesn't render inverted faces when baking with it, which we need for AO passes for our basic textures.

And the only point (besides baking) where I'd say you can actually say one is better than the other is also a very specific point, and that's displacement, where I think mental ray's kind of doesn't work too well compared to Vray's more flexible options.

But yea, it's like choosing a 3d package to work with. I only just started using Vray so I haven't run into the shortcomings of that engine yet (I still prefer rendering with mr 😉 )
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eodeo
Collaborator
Collaborator
For anyone that cares (Jeff 😉

Nvidia bought mental images few months ago. Their heavily investing in their CUDA programming language and their GPGPU approach. They have finished their Galeto project and made “pro” version available for free.

Nvidia’s new goal in life is to bring mental ray rendering to their GPU. If they succeed (and I don’t doubt this one bit), other rendering solutions (and possibly gfx cards) will be made obsolete over night (for 3d content creation).

As a mental ray user, I can’t wait.

p.s. for those of you who don’t get the importance of rendering via graphic card instead of central processor- look at it like this:

Intel’s fastest quad core to date – c2qx 9770 @ 3.2ghz has ~60gigaflops
Nvidia GTX 280 has 933 gigaflops – single precision.
90 gigaflops double precision. You do the math.
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matt_3d
Explorer
Explorer
Thanks everyone for your replies. I have a few years experience with MR for Maya and have in the last year moved to a new company which is using Vray for Max. I have always preferred Vray for still images, but I don't have much experience with animations. Since MR is included with Max, I think it would probably be a wise move to spend some time with it and see how it performs. All my memories from my Maya days are those damn final gather splotchies!!! 😛

Thanks again! (oh, and sorry for hijacking the op's thread 😉 )

-Matt
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Anonymous
Not applicable
damn, eodeo, that sounds rather ravashing 😉

Although I don't doubt that VRay and other render engines will be looking into this as well 🙂 -- guessing

ps: why did they buy mental ray and not VRay, is there an article on the "why" and "how" they plan to achieve this? I'd be much interested in reading this

greets
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eodeo
Collaborator
Collaborator
I don’t doubt that VRay and other render engines will be looking into this as well 🙂 —guessing


VRay and others might be looking, but without nvidia backing them up, that’s all they’ll be able to do – look 😛

why did they buy mental ray and not VRay, is there an article on the “why” and “how” they plan to achieve this? I’d be much interested in reading this


The why is rather simple- most 3d packages have default support of mental ray, and (I think) all of the 3d packages at least have support for MR. Mostly used 3d software have default mental ray support (max, maya, xsi…) so it makes most sense here.

Because its mostly widespread renderer it’s the one being used mostly- so again, major population of artists are being targeted as potential costumers. It just makes most business sense as well.

There might be better renderers in quality (I doubt it and at the very least it’s debatable), mental ray just wins again in quality department as the (near?) best option.

On a somewhat related note- I wish ati did this instead of nvidia. Not only do they have much faster cards overall, but ati also has 4x of speed loss when going from single to double precision. (nvidia has 12x speed loss)

So, I hope that I can render with 32bit buffer in mental ray – full 933gigaflops on gtx 280. In 64bit buffer (ie double precision) its going to be “only” 90gigaflops.

Than, nvidia has been very open about their physix engine and a costum physix engine that can run CUDA on ATI hardware is being made. Unlike Physix, I don’t think that nvidia has any intrest in ATI being able to run the mental ray code.

And one last tidbit- nvidia might hardwire the necessary steps to render mental ray only on the new quadro cards- effectively pulling the misbegotten line from the graveyard. This shouldn’t be possible, but if persistent enough, nvidia might finally be able to give the quadro users a reason to spend 50x more money on 10% less performance. I might even consider getting one than...

Useful links:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/mental_images.html
http://www.beyond3d.com/content/news/543
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Anonymous
Not applicable
Ok, so to set up the reason why I am asking this question: A co-worker of mine at an architecture firm( summer interns) told me that I should not bother using mental ray at all any more because Maxwell Render is sooo much better he says. In fact, his attitude was a little sneery when I told him I use Mental ray or Radiosity to render my scenes for school. I got the impression that he was trying to make mental ray sound like its outdated and a has been software.

This is really the first time I have heard of this about mental ray. I have seen Maxwell render used on student projects and I didn't feel blown away by the results. Comparable yes. 'Sooo' much better? No. So I wanted to know what the latest trend was when it comes to rendering. Is maxwell the best out there now? Is it worth an investment of time and money because it is the wave of the future? Or is it just another option...

Thanks for your replies.


I started to post, but my battery died mid way through, so I will try again.

Whenever someone says something is so much better, always be cautious. I have found that most of these people fall into 2 camps. The first, they have always used one product, so how can anything else be better. Second, they drank the Kool Aid that the marketing department of the software released.

In my opinion, your friend has fallen under the second of the 2 scenarios.

The concept of Maxwell is nice. It is physically accurate based engine, which in concept, should produce results that best represent what it is you are showing. That is all nice. But beyond that, there are a couple of problems, the biggest of which is the amount of time and horsepower Maxwell needs to achieve decent results. The last person I spoke with on this said it was common place to let a rendering run over night, on 15 machines to get a good print quality image. This is simply not exceptable in a production environment. The second problem I see with Maxwell is more of a problem a lot of users have. A lot of people think that it is best to do everything in 3d, and they will spend hours trying to get something simple to work in 3d that they could do in Photoshop in minutes. The concept of Maxwell tends to promote this.

Another alternate to Maxwell would be Fry Render. It is also a physical based engine, that gives good results, but it is also my understanding that their development team is more receptive to it user base, and overall the engine is faster.

I have been doing Arch Viz for the past 10 years, and most firms that I have worked for,or deal with now stand in the Vray or MR camp. MR had a bad name in Arch Viz for a long time because the stuff that Vray was doing translated to th arch viz arena better than MR. However, with recent releases of MR, they have really closed the gap. Now each has their advantages. For me Vray has better and faster GI solutions, and MR has better material solutions, and is tied into Max. I have only been using MR for a handful of months, so maybe I will learn speed tweaks for MR as I go. I do really expect to see some wonderful things coming out of the MR camp in the arch viz arena over the year or so.

The bottom line is, ...don't trust marketing hype whether it is from AutoDesk, Maxwell, or some other company. The best decisions are made on analyzing production workflow, and what works best. This is experience that can not be read in a book, or advertisement. It has to be based on real world projects, under real deadlines, in real working conditions.
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eodeo
Collaborator
Collaborator
the amount of time and horsepower Maxwell needs to achieve decent results.


I never used Maxwell, but that’s all i ever hear about it: not too shabby, but way too slow.

A lot of people think that it is best to do everything in 3d, and they will spend hours trying to get something simple to work in 3d that they could do in Photoshop in minutes. The concept of Maxwell tends to promote this.


I like Maxwell a lot better, already 😛

The bottom line is, ...don’t trust marketing hype whether it is from AutoDesk, Maxwell, or some other company. The best decisions are made on analyzing production workflow, and what works best. This is experience that can not be read in a book, or advertisement. It has to be based on real world projects, under real deadlines, in real working conditions.


If I may butt into this-

To me, renderer war looks very much Max vs Maya war. Comments can be given, opinions noted, but it really boils down to what you have been using up to the point you got interested into what is better.

Now, unlike Max vs Maya, renderer war is somewhat simpler and you could try the renderer X a fairly bit more easily than you could another 3d software. Still, the results you get from your tries are never going to be comparable in speed nor quality to the same scene you can setup in the renderer of your choice- simply because you dont know how to do it efficiently.

Experts in multiple rendering engines are easier to find than experts in multiple 3d packages, and those will be more likely to agree on what is better, simply due to narrowness of interest of the rendering software.

In conclusion- no one was born with knowledge of mental ray or Maxwell or VRay- someone thought it to you or you picked one at semi-random for whatever reason in-the-beginning. Until the point where one renderer becomes so much better (unlikely) or faster (mr/ nvidia project), no real winners can be named. Your safest bet is to continue using your renderer of choice until one of the 2 moments above is met.

Cheers 🙂
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Anonymous
Not applicable
hey eodeo, is this linked to what you're talking about?

http://www.nvidia.com/object/cuda_home.html#

it's "CUDA"
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eodeo
Collaborator
Collaborator
Yep. CUDA is just a programing language based on "C" that allows programs to use 240 cores of gtx 280 nvidia graphic card and kick the living daylights out of quad core CPUs.

It has to be used as those 240 cores are not x86 compatible.

And to see what actual cards can use CUDA http://www.nvidia.com/object/cuda_learn_products.html

For those that the link means little - its simply all the cards from geforece series 8 forward and all the quadro and tesla variants (same geforece card with higher price tag and different target group)

So, its easy to see that once nvidia gets the mental ray code CUDA ready all those cards should be able to run it… unless nvidia backstabs their own line of cards to give one line an artificial boost.

Even if they try to do that, I’m pretty sure that a major thing like mental ray CUDA code will be cracked to run on all gf 8+ series cards (in case it has to be cracked). In fact, im pretty certain that the code will be ported to be able to run even on the ATI cards- and that will be glorious.

I’m sure nvidia will try very hard to disable this from happening. Lower priced and 3x better performing ATI cards running nvidia proprietary code might not be legal, but it sure will be fast 🙂
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Anonymous
Not applicable
Now I haven't played with a lot of the settings through the years, more or less left default since I just never learned the software to a higher level.

I started with the default render way back in the day. From there I tried MR, and wasn't very successful with it. Teacher had access to Vray so gave that a whirl. Worked like a charm in my book couldn't complain. Well til 2 years ago I used Vray myself a lot. With sites with shaders came out for it so I didn't have to customize my own shaders and such it was quiet cool to play with no doubt. Even for bigger projects I did for School I used Vray.

Til now I just started back up in 3D again here at work doing network renderings of some animations. We started with the default... Junk 😉 Didn't realize it only used 1 core which isn't good when you got 4 core machines. Then went to network render, then finally realized, wait MR should use multi cores, and network render very nicely for animations. And sure enough tried it out. I'm impressed for some just general animations to get the point across it works really really well. I gotta check out MR alot more when I get some time and learn more on its features and benefits, and its nice since it is included by default.

So both have there positives in my book. I really leaned on Vray in the beginning but not a little more experienced going to try MR out more since im highly interested into doing animations and I can transfer some objects from other programs textured without worrying about re-texturing it with Vray material.
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Anonymous
Not applicable
[
If I may butt into this-

To me, renderer war looks very much Max vs Maya war. Comments can be given, opinions noted, but it really boils down to what you have been using up to the point you got interested into what is better.

Now, unlike Max vs Maya, renderer war is somewhat simpler and you could try the renderer X a fairly bit more easily than you could another 3d software. Still, the results you get from your tries are never going to be comparable in speed nor quality to the same scene you can setup in the renderer of your choice- simply because you dont know how to do it efficiently.

Experts in multiple rendering engines are easier to find than experts in multiple 3d packages, and those will be more likely to agree on what is better, simply due to narrowness of interest of the rendering software.

In conclusion- no one was born with knowledge of mental ray or Maxwell or VRay- someone thought it to you or you picked one at semi-random for whatever reason in-the-beginning. Until the point where one renderer becomes so much better (unlikely) or faster (mr/ nvidia project), no real winners can be named. Your safest bet is to continue using your renderer of choice until one of the 2 moments above is met.

Cheers 🙂


Points taken on it being easier to switch Render Engines than software packages.

I choose Vray when first starting off with a GI engine because the licensing scheme at that time was more affordable. If I remember correctly at that time you did not have unlimited render nodes for MR, or Final Render. We were going for quality, and what we could do without breaking the bank. Now I am on MR. I am picking it up, but still suffering some of the same things I did when I first started using Vray. Basically, how to make sure the choices I am making will still allow the deadlines to be met.

To me, the most valuable experience you can have when it comes to software or render engines is the production experience. It is during this time you learn what the software is capable of, how hard you can push it, and what the limitations are. Unfortunately there are very few books that truly address these issues.
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