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3ds Max 2018 + Arnold + Backburner = ?

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Message 1 of 16
bhenry1790
3511 Views, 15 Replies

3ds Max 2018 + Arnold + Backburner = ?

Installed 3ds Max 2018 and enjoy tinkering with Arnold (currently use Vray in Max 2017 for production). There is certainly much to like about Arnold, however I am confused about how I would roll Arnold into my render workflow.

 

We have 2 workstations + 15 render node licenses for Vray and use Backburner frequently and DR occasionally.

 

How would I license the additional 15 Arnold render nodes for use with Backburner / DR?

 

Couldn't find pricing for render nodes at Solid Angles website. Emailed Solid Angle sales but no reply.

15 REPLIES 15
Message 2 of 16
juha_h
in reply to: bhenry1790

You need a full license for every node - so 15 nodes is 15 x £790 / €1095 / $1220 if you don't get volume discount. 

Message 3 of 16
bhenry1790
in reply to: juha_h


@juha_h wrote:

You need a full license for every node - so 15 nodes is 15 x £790 / €1095 / $1220 if you don't get volume discount. 


Whoah! Thanks for clarifying! This is a very significant jump in cost for GI network rendering that was always included with the previous iterations of Max (via Mental Ray). Troubling...

 

Looking forward to exploring Arnold more, but we'll be sticking with Vray for the foreseeable future.

 

I'd recommend looking at Vray to everybody bemoaning the loss of Mental Ray. Chaos Group has very fair pricing for Workstation / Render Nodes. Great quality and keeps getting better with every new iteration.

 

Message 4 of 16
mpowers10000
in reply to: bhenry1790

More than troubling - it is BS. We are probably going to drop all 7 of our subscriptions to the Creation Suite and move over to Cinema 4D.

 

Is anyone from Autodesk listening???

Message 5 of 16
bhenry1790
in reply to: mpowers10000


@mpowers10000 wrote:

More than troubling - it is BS. We are probably going to drop all 7 of our subscriptions to the Creation Suite and move over to Cinema 4D.

 

Is anyone from Autodesk listening???


Yea! We just got a PERPETUAL license for C4D to give a test drive and kick the tires. So far so good. Going to use it for more simple upcoming productions and hope to roll it into our larger workflows.

 

C4D definitely has advantages / disadvantages compared to 3ds Max.

 

C4D Mograph tools are mind blowing amazing, but 3ds Max has so many wonderful plugins.

 

C4D's Team Rendering is different, but powerful (I prefer Backburner because I've been using it since the late 1990's). Also missing the tight Vray integration you get with 3ds Max + Backburner.

 

Many C4D users are on Arnold for rendering.

Message 6 of 16
ehren
in reply to: mpowers10000

This is why software gets pirated.  Big ass slap in the face to every developer behind it and the businesses who use it to earn a buck.

Message 7 of 16
bhenry1790
in reply to: bhenry1790

Wanted to leave a little note for others looking at alternative render engines. 

 

Vray is very good + clear licensing for workstation / render nodes.

 

Also testing Redshift and very impressed with speed and quality of results. Similar materials / look and feel to Vray, but much faster with Nvidia GPU. Fair pricing.

Message 8 of 16
daniel.holland
in reply to: bhenry1790

Just found out I cannot use backburner with Arnold! This is so maddening...they remove Mental Ray so I take the time learn the ins and outs of Arnold only to find I can only render my work on a single machine. Why did Autodesk do this? Our subscription money isn't enough? An arnold license for each machine I use to render on would be insanely costly. 

Message 9 of 16
bhenry1790
in reply to: daniel.holland

 

 

 


@daniel.holland wrote:

Just found out I cannot use backburner with Arnold! This is so maddening...they remove Mental Ray so I take the time learn the ins and outs of Arnold only to find I can only render my work on a single machine. Why did Autodesk do this? Our subscription money isn't enough? An arnold license for each machine I use to render on would be insanely costly. 


Yeah. This Arnold thing is crazy. However, I think you get 5 Arnold licenses with the Media & Entertainment Collection now. 

 

Take a look at Vray. I've been using Vray with Backburner for over 10 years and it works great!

 

I found it to be much faster than Mental Ray and Chaossgroup keeps improving quality / speed with each iteration.

 

I'm slowly shifting production work to Cinema 4D and RedShift. RedShift is amazing because it's GPU based you can use one license across many applications. For example I use a single RedShift license on my workstation with 3ds Max, Cinema 4d and Houdini. GPU rendering is crazy fast compared to CPU. Much like having a (small) render farm inside your computer. Redshift works great with Backburner, but each render node needs a full license.

 

Good luck!

Message 10 of 16
leochester
in reply to: bhenry1790

Wow - what a total load of nonsense - i'm not even going to look at Arnold simply because of the insanity regarding render node pricing. I also am starting to think seriously about a shift to C4D (which is also a ton of money, but worth it to be free of AD)

Message 11 of 16
madsd
in reply to: leochester

5 pack is $1500 pr year, so not exactly what was stated earlier in the thread but far far less...

 

If you use it occationally, you can get a monthly subscription for $65 for a workstation which isn't exactly earth shattering.

Message 12 of 16
dgorsman
in reply to: madsd

While everyone is bemoaning the cost of Arnold being "ridiculous" and how users still need to make money, *please* consider that the devs, IT, and others who are working on Arnold also need to get paid.  If your first response to that is "That's not my concern, it's up to them to find the money", then consider your clients making a similar argument to you when they demand you take work at a loss.

 

Don't be surprised if other renderers start changing their licensing terms in the future, either charging more, instituting "live" per-node charging, or similar schemes.

----------------------------------
If you are going to fly by the seat of your pants, expect friction burns.
"I don't know" is the beginning of knowledge, not the end.


Message 13 of 16
ehren
in reply to: dgorsman

WHAT!?!?  Economics 101, if your customer doesn't want to pay for it, get out of the business.  Clients have already asked artists to work at a loss.  The "bemoaning" is entirely appropriate.  Thank you.

Message 14 of 16
leochester
in reply to: dgorsman

obviously they can charge whatever they like. vray nodes used to be a lot
more affordable - they already increased in price quite significantly so i
dont believe they will go up again too soon. Anyhow, by all means they
should keep the arnold prices sky high - just dont expect that many people
will feel the need to buy them ! Personally the only reason i went with
Vray all those years ago was because it was too expensive to add network
render licenses for mental ray. Vray had a much more appealing pricing
structure.
Really though the point is this - if your going to add a new render engine,
why not try to make it an appealing offer ? Or even just start it off with
an appealing offer, such as 2 or 3 render nodes included and charge more
for those that need to go beyond that. Sometimes its best to sacrifice a
little at the beginning so you can entice your audience.......
Message 15 of 16
bborecki
in reply to: leochester

For years I work alone with maintenance subscription, on a single machine, using 3ds max for renders and animation. I used to render in scanline, mentalray, iray and art renderer using backburner a lot, sometimes two different renders in the same project. Often projects require to render few camera angles, so I planned it for night time with backburner. But now, with only scanline, art and arnold I CAN'T do my work, because of limits... let me explain:

 

1. Scanline is simple, nothing changed here, but it's not for final result like GI, rather for additional effects.

2. Art renderer often is not enough for final work either. It can't render caustics, have a lot of bugs and constraints (incompatible maps, shadows of light's shapes, matte&shadow, limited render properties).

3. Arnold out of the box can't work with backburner without additional license FOR THE SAME MACHINE! so I can't schedule my renders for night! Therefore it is useless for me and my workflow.

 

Autodesk took away from me a working product - after 3ds max 2016-2017... I am paying more for subscription and they force me to pay for additional licenses in order to work as before...

 

 

Message 16 of 16
daniel.holland
in reply to: bborecki

So to finish my project my company ended up footing the bill for 1 additional temp license for Arnold rendering node. It was a whole process to obtain and another to get working properly...and it when it came to render time I had to keep messing with it for the node to work with backburner.  So don't expect the process to be as easy as using backburner with Mental Ray and alot yourself extra time to get the setup working. None the less, I moved us to a real-time rendering engine outside of 3Ds max, the results have been great and rendering time isn't much more than the length of the scene at 4K resolution.

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