How to model wire spoke wheel rims?

[tjc101]

Hey all...

I`m wondering if anyone could help me with information/tips/tuts on modeling the wire spoke wheel rims found on the more historic cars such as the Ferrari 166MM Barchetta (1948-50) and Ferrari GTO to name but two.

The actual rim itself and the other parts I can model it`s the wire spokes themselves that I`m asking about. What`s the best/correct way to modeling them and get the small bends looking right? Also, when the spokes are actually modeled and shaped correctly how they placed evenly around the rim? I`m sure there will be a way of doing this in 3ds Max but I`m not sure exactly what it is.

I`d really appreciate some help with this guys as I just need to do the spokes and wheel is finished. Image attached below showing the rim and spokes.

Cheers

tj 🙂

[Daf]

Hi,

LOTS of info on this subject out there. Take a look through the results of the search below. I bet you will have a much better handle of the processes if you do. If you run into any specific difficulties post back, but I bet you get it! 🙂

https://www.google.com/search?q=3ds+max+spokes+tutorials

Good luck!

Daf

[leeminardi]

From looking at a few pictures I believe there are 24 outside and 24 inside spokes.  Therefore there is a spoke hole on the hub and rim every 15°.  I created a radial array of  straight lines every 15° as a reference grid and then created a spline with 3 vertices with Bezier smoothing and adjusted the vertices and smoothing for the spline (with a renderable thickness) as seen below.

I then use Mirror to create spoke #2.   Since the two spokes cross at the second vertex I moved the 2nd vertex of spoke #1 towards me a distance equal to the radius of the spoke and its corresponding vertex on spoke #2 away from me by the same amount. 

The spoke vertices at the rim should also be move to backwards.

You can then group the two spokes and move the pivot of the group to the center of the hub.  Arraying the group 12 times yields the following.

A mirror of this geometry can be used to create the spokes that go from the inside of the hub to the outside of the rim.

[tjc101]

@Daf 

Hey...

Thanks for the reply and the link. Definitely a lot of good info there and I`m sure it`ll help out. I did google for tuts for this but searched for everything but " 3ds max spoke tutorials" 😄

Anyway, I`ll check these out.

Cheers

tj

[tjc101]

@leeminardi 

Hi...

Well, all I can say is many thanks indeed for taking the time to do this little tut for me. It explains things very well and in some detail. Very much appreciate that. 🙂

I`m thinking that I`ll have to create the holes in both the hub and the rim to make it look as good as possible and then model the spokes themselves. Then, get them paced properly...

For the holes... I suppose I could again model say, two and then use the array to place the rest around the hub/rim?

I`ll have a bash at this today. Will let you both know how I get on.

Many thanks

tj

[leeminardi]

I don't think you need to include the holes in the rim or hub if you will only see the wheel when  it is assembled.  A general rule is if you don't see it don't model it.  Adding all those holes will bloat the model, perhaps unnecessarily.  Think of the number of faces needed for each hole. 

Many modelers can create a lot of detail.  The best model only the detail that matters.

[tjc101]

@leeminardi 

I had a little try of doing the spokes today but realised I`m not sure how you started things off. How do I create the radial array of straight lines every 15 degrees?

[leeminardi]

Turn on the grid and draw a line from 0,0 (assuming the top view) to a point in the x direction so that you have a horizontal line.  Now move the line's pivot to 0,0,0.  Then use Tools, Array with settings of 360 for z and a total of 24 copies.  Check out the documentation for array if you have a problem.

[tjc101]

Ok... progress report. 

First rim has been modeled as it appears on the actual car. The spokes are not symmetrical and look a bit "messy" but that`s how it is in reality.

Second rim has the spokes placed more symmetrically. I think this looks much better but not really how it looks in reality.

Still a few little things I think I could get better but it`s coming along. Thanks again for the links and info guys. 🙂

[leeminardi]

Glad to see you are making some progress.

A quick look at the images you posted I noticed that holes along the outer rim and hub are not evenly distributed.  They should be!

Also, the original photo you posted indicates 12 sets of spokes in each of the four orientations: 

  1. from outer rim to inner hub inclined right.

  2. from outer rim to inner hub inclined left.

  3. from inner rim to outer hub inclined right.

  4. from inner rim to outer hub inclined left.

Both of your images only show 10 sets.  CHange your array to 12 instances.

[tjc101]

Thanks.

I think I have modeled the spokes correctly. The rim I`ve actually modeled is NOT the rim pictured in my first post. Sorry, I should have made that more clear. I`m actually modeling the Ferrari 166MM Barchetta (1950) 

The rim pictured in my first post is the Ferrari 166 Inter Spyder Corsa (1948) and was intended only as an example of the wire spoke wheel rims.

The Spyder Corsa in that image does indeed have 12 sets of outer spokes but the Barchetta only has 10.

I`ve modeled all the spokes coloured in red and blue above and arrayed them 10 times which is correct for the rim I`m modeling.

[leeminardi]

The spoke pattern looks very good! The wire diameter perhaps should be a bit larger and the dimples in the rim should be the color of the rim.

In 1968 I owned an '64 MGB with wire wheels and spinners. Fun to drive in good weather.  With poor weather, not so much. 

[tjc101]

Cheers. Yeh, as I`ve already said, the real spokes pattern actually looks a bit "messy" so I think I`ll try and keep them with a nice symmetrical pattern as it definitely looks better.

I`m going to re-do the spokes using some of the advice I`ve been given and also the experience of now having done it once. I`ve learned a few little things. I`ll increase the diameter to see how they look.

I`ll also make the dimples/ball ends the same colour as the rim. The colours I`m using just now are just for modeling.

The 64 MGB is a cool little car. Really nice wheels on it. As you say, maybe not so good in bad weather.

Maybe you could answer a question for me... I know every set of wheels will be different depending on the car but how far out did the knock off wheel nut (with the little wings) actually "stick out" from the rim on the GMB? Did it go past the plane of the rim by much? I have a lot of hi-res images of the Barchetta but none really show the position of that part clearly.

[tjc101]

I have a question about the Align tool. I just cannot get it to work for me with the following alignment.

I want to align the long box (which is the small nut at the top of the wire spoke) to the actual spoke itself but as I say, can`t figure out how to do it.

Nut has the red stripes - spoke has the yellow.

I aligned the two manually in the image above and that was a TOTAL nightmare and as you can see it`s still not correct.

I`d appreciate some pointers as I`m sure it can be done in Max. 

[leeminardi]

When using the plain form of the Align function (Tools, Align) the selected object will be moved and re-oriented to the target object so that the pivots of the two objects are aligned.

I have found the options for align to be so cumbersome that I wrote my own Maxscript to help.  The script alignPivot2points.ms will change the pivot so that the local z axis of the object is located at the first screen pick and points to the second screen pick.  

The Maxscript 

-- relocates the pivot of a selected object to the first 
-- point specified by the user and with its Z axis point 
-- towrds the second point specified.
-- L. Minardi  1/31/2019  v1
-- 
for spl in selection  do (
s=1
e1 = pickPoint prompt:"\nPick new pivot location" snap:#3D
e2 = pickPoint prompt:"\nPick point on new Z axis for pivot" snap:#3D
v = e2-e1  -- vector from vertex 1 to 2
vlen = length(v)
vu = v/vlen  -- unit vector
m = spl.transform  -- object matrix
ftm = translate (matrixfromnormal vu) e1
itm = ftm*(inverse m)
spl.transform = ftm
spl.objectOffsetPos *= inverse itm
spl.objectOffsetRot *= inverse itm.rotation
spl.transform
)

For correctly orienting the spoke nipple with the spoke I would:

1. Use alignPivot2points to change the pivot of the spoke so that the z axis is aligned with with the spoke segment where the nipple should be positioned.  Use object snaps- vertex to get precise results.

2. Use alignPivot2points to change the pivot of the spoke nipple so that its z axis is aligned with its axis.

3.  Select the nipple and use Tools, Align... 

[tjc101]

Thanks for the reply and script lee. Appreciate it. I`ve never used any scripts before but will give this a shot.

Align has worked for me with other objects etc but I just cannot get it to work with this.

[tjc101]

leeminardi

"I'm unsure how well you understand the concept of an object's pivot and that may be part of the reason for your questions.  With the local coordinate system active you can see (via move or rotate), the  orientation of the pivot. The align command uses the local pivot for aligning objects.  Align normal will use face normals (vectors perpendicular to a flat plane). An object's pivot cannot be changed during an animation.

Why are you converting the spline to an editable poly?  Leaving it as a spline with a renderable thickness gives you much more control and a more efficient model.  Little, if anything, is gained by converting it to an Editable Poly.  I do not see how using a cylinders helps.  It would be difficult to make the cylinder bend to meet the requirements." 

Hi lee,

Ok, before we go any further I have to say that although I`ve been using Max for some time now and I can produce a reasonably decent model, I`m still very much a noob as to how to properly use the tools and also the proper modeling methods. As I`m sure you`re starting to realise. *

That said I think I`ve learned quite a bit from simply trying things out and following certain tuts on modeling etc but yeh, still have heaps to learn to do things efficiently and the in the proper way.

So, I would say I have a basic understanding of pivots and what they do etc but I`m sure there`s still a lot for me to learn.

As I`ve said, I`ve found that using lines/splines is the best way to model the spokes as it enables the small bends at the bottom of the spokes to be modeled in a way that looks correct. That`s much harder to achieve using a Cylinder as you say. But, going by what you`ve said I`m still obviously not doing things correctly.

I have given the spline a renderable thickness. Rendering tab - Enable In Renderer - Enable In Viewport. Both ticked.

Radial is also selected with a Thickness of 16 and Sides of 4.

Now, I was simply under the impression that once the correct position for the line was achieved it would then have to be converted to Editable Poly as would be done if I was modeling the spoke from a Cylinder, but by the sounds of it that`s not correct.

Going back to Pivots... I probably understand using them/moving them etc more than I do modeling with lines/splines. I`ve never modeled using them before so that`s probably where I`m going wrong/getting confused.

So... taking up where you left off re modeling the spokes above, how then would you model the top nut of the spoke and then the dimples/ball ends the top of the spokes go into?

If you wouldn`t mind, a little run down of how you`d model the spokes etc using lines/splines would probably clear up quite a lot for me.

tj

[leeminardi]

Since I believe the spokes are round and not square I would set them to have 12 or more sides (fewer if you are never going to see them close up).  To model the spoke nipple I would create two shapes as seen here.

The white line will be lathed to make the revolved shape of the nipple (note that its pivot x axis  defines the axis of revolution for the lathe modifier) and the green shape will be extruded and arrayed to make the flats on the nipple.

Here’s the result.

The pivot of the green shape is moved to the axis of the pink lathed piece and then array is used to make 4 copies.

The pink object is selected and then a ProBoolean subtract is used to make the flats resulting in this shape.

If you are happy with the shape and do not wish to edit it further I would convert it to an editable poly at this time.

To position the nipple onto the spoke I would use AlignPivot2points.ms to set the local z axis of the spline at the start of the spline and pointing to the next spline vertex (essential in line with the first segment of the spline).  NOTE, IT MAY BE NECESSARY TO RESET THE TRANSFORM OF THE SPOKE BEFORE USING THE SCRIPT.  To do this select the spoke and go to the Hierarchy  tab and click Transform under Rest

You can now use the standard Align feature to position the nipple.

This aligns the z axis of the nipple with the z axis of the spoke.. Since the x axis is the axis of the nipple and z the axis of the spoke we need to rotate the nipple by 90° about its y axis yielding this.

As for the dimples, I would create a half-profile of it and lathe it.

[tjc101]

Hi lee,

Yes, the spokes are most definitely round. Once again I was going by other info I was told by another user (on another forum) and he suggested keeping the spokes set to 4 sides. Quite happy to increase this though.

Once again you have provided some excellent info here on how to go about the modeling process. Thanks for that.

Boolean/ProBoolean is another method of modeling I`m not very sure about, simply because I`ve not done any modeling this way but I`m always up for trying new ways to do this stuff and learning all I can.

Using this method certainly seems to have produced a nice looking top nut I have to say.

Looks like I have some work to do. It`ll be interesting to see what kind of results I get using this method.

As far as the ball ends are concerned... would the method you suggest be easier/better than simply using a Sphere? (well, half a Sphere to be more precise)