Too Many Vertices/Faces on Combined Object

[scodavis]

I am trying to model a complete pipe organ console in 3ds max 2020.  I have done a lot of the modeling so far but the keyboard is giving me problems.  Attached is an image of the object I am working with (the top half is the total object); here is how I arrived at this object.  This particular key is a "C" key, and has a cutout for the "C Sharp" key, not pictured.

• Outlined three individual objects using Adobe Illustrator:
  • Lip area (a little detail area at the front of the key)
  • Middle area (slightly thicker than the lip area)
  • Back area (the thickest part, which also goes around the sharp key).
• Imported the combined objects into Max as an editable spline
• Applied an Extrude modifier to each part to make it the correct width.
• Used the "Collapse" utility to make it a single object.

Everything looks great - until I apply a Chamfer modifier to make the edges rounded.  The chamfer is applied, but where the three sections are joined it applies it in the wrong way.  The bottom half of the attached image shows that it's applying the chamfer as if it's three objects, not one.

I figure there must be something simple I can do - how do I fix this?

Thank you!

[10DSpace]

@scodavis 

It looks like the issue is simply double vertices in different sections of the mesh.  To fix this, you simply have to select all of the vertices and then Weld them with a low threshold value.  Start with the default of 0.1 threshold value but you may have to adjust this value depending on the size of your mesh.   You can tell you are getting welding when you see the number of vertices are reduced to what you would expect based on the number of corners you have in this simple geometry (1 vertex per corner only in the image you have shown before chamfering.)  After you have reduced the vertices to the expected number, then try the chamfer and it should be OK.   

Hope this solves your issue.

[scodavis]

Before I try, I do need a point of clarification.  Do I select all vertices without all of the objects, or just the vertices that overlap?

[scodavis]

@10DSpace 

I tried what you stated - selected all vertices in the mesh, and then did a weld with several different values.  It seems that the minimum value yielded good results, though the shading on the side started looking really weird.  When I tried applying the Chamfer modifier, it did the same thing again.

This time I've attached my .max file - after messing with this for a half-hour I'm starting to get really stumped.  The .max file has the mesh after I have done the extrusions and the collapse utility.

[domo.spaji]

Collapse utility is making it a single object but you still have 3 separated meshes as 3 elements.

(You can check it in Element sublevel of Editable Mesh)

If you (still) want to start with 3 (unique) splines:

1. Select 1 spline shape and attach other 2 so you'll have single spline obj.

2. Apply Vertex Weld modifier (it will turn it to mesh obj. and weld close or overlapping vertices) 

3. Apply Shell mod. and set value to get first smallest thickness

4. Apply Edit Poly mod. and make 2 more extrusions to get desired shape

5. Apply Smooth modifier - set it to Autosmooth (default threshold 30)

6. Apply Chamfer modifier - All Edges, Input Opt. Unsmoothed edges

Dont collapse the stack!

[scodavis]

@domo.spaji 

I tried but it just left me confused and didn't seem to work.

Is there a method I can use where I start with a single spline object and extrude the three sections?  Or I guess another way to ask would be, what is the BEST and EASIEST way to accomplish what I am trying to do?

[domo.spaji]

It is working if you follow the steps.

You're probably done it to fast...

Method with a single spline object - That way you can skip 1. step from my post

Method with a single spline object and extrude the three sections - possible but more complicated

I would skip AI and do all in max, it's simple shape.

Starting with 2x2 Plane, Edit poly on that - delete one polygon than make 2 edge loops...

But there are many ways to make that, can't even tell what would be simpler or faster.

One is sure, welding your 1st result isn't way to go.

[scodavis]

@domo.spaji I am currently working on trying to do it starting with a 2x2 plane.  Basically, I was able to create and configure a plane exactly how I needed it to be, but when I did the extrusion to make the key shape (by extruding down) the shape was perfect but there was no top.  I felt like I got so close, yet so far.  Urgh.

And I didn't understand what you meant by deleting a polygon and doing edge loops.

Then, I tried a different method.  I created a standard box with the correct number of segments in each direction.  I applied Edit Mesh and then moved each segment edge to it's proper position.  Then I deleted all the edges I didn't need, and drew new ones to fill in the gap.  The result is the best I've gotten so far, but it's still not perfect.  Some of the corners are really weird, and some of the edges didn't get a chamfer at all.  And the side got some strange shading that didn't occur until the chamfer was applied.

[domo.spaji]

Model with Edit Poly not Edit Mesh mod.

To get closed mesh from Plane primitive or any planar obj. apply Shell modifier ( so by your words "there will be top" - or bottom :))

Take a look at help files - Object Space modifiers

There are lot of modifiers "inside" Edit Poly mod. - maybe best to get know them by study each separately.

[10DSpace]

@scodavis 

Attached is your corrected mesh with I think the result you want see image. 

To fix your mesh, I had to delete 2 polygons that were getting in the way of welding because welding requires completely open faces.  To see the faces you have to switch to wireframe some times (F3).

I do agree with @domo.spaji  about the quickest way to do this very simple geometry is in Max to begin with.  But you do need to be familiar with modeling tools to do it.  So the attached file also includes a max modeled version created with very basic edit poly modeling tolls of adding edges where you need them and extruding (see first image). Hope it helps out. 

[scodavis]

Thank you @10DSpace and @domo.spaji - I went back and modeled it from scratch, starting with a box, converting to an editable poly, extruding twice, removing faces to create the cutout for sharps, adding faces to fill in the two blanks left by the cutting, and attached is the result.

Everything looks fine except for the area where the overhang meets the main part of the key, on both the left and right sides.  I feel like I'm almost there!  I've attached the updated .max file.  What is still wrong with the object?

[10DSpace · Accepted solution]

@scodavis 

You created double polygons in the interior of the model that were messing things up.  

I deleted these polygons, added support edges to align with the lower edge of the protrusion and then rewelded the vertices where the support edges joined the lower corner. then applied chamfer with your settings. The corrected result is in the attached max file.   

[scodavis]

@10DSpace @domo.spaji I want to thank both of you for your suggestions and assistance.  Thanks to you, [very late] last night I was able to resolve the issue.

What I did was very similar to your final suggestion, 10DSpace - I looked hard and discovered those extra polygons.  I resolved the issue by moving the 3 internal vertices down to the proper position and welding them with the vertices already there.  I didn't have to add any additional vertices, but the end result was great!  This morning, I was able to create a D-Note key in about 15 additional minutes, and even had time to model a sharp key (using a box, taper modifiers, and a chamfer) and I am extremely happy with the result (attached).

I have learned a lot about the right (and much easier) way to do modeling as a result of your help and, once again, I really, really appreciate it!  If you would like, I would love to share with you the final organ console result when I am finished (though I'm not sure how).

[10DSpace]

@scodavis 

Glad to help, looks very good and I would like to see the final result. Thanks following up with the outcome. 

[scodavis]

@10DSpace Not sure if this will come through because it was marked as solved, but I've come across another problematic one.  I was able to do another couple keys and they turned out great, and then I hit the G key and yet another wall.  The worst part is that I did the exact same thing as I did on the other keys, and now I'm getting this awful diagonal shading on both sides.  I spent over an hour trying various things to fix it, and in each case my fixes either did nothing or made it worse.

[10DSpace]

@scodavis 

There's no issue with continuing the discussion after 1 issue has been solved if another comes up. I took a look at your G2 key and you have again extra polygons in the same area. 

There were also extra edges on the front top corner protrusion and 1 double vertex.  I rebuilt the mesh in the area and you can see I added back that support edge.  Of course I then had to change the selected edges for the Chamfer modifier.  The smoothing groups were also messed up so I just cleared them all, since you are using chamfer for all of your curvature in this case.  Attached is the resulting Max file with G2_Corrected right next to your G2 that you were having trouble with. 

Hope this helps and at the risk of stating the obvious you can clone the good keys you have and use mirror or move verts on 1 side for any further adjustments. 

[scodavis]

@10DSpace I just pulled up your corrected file and the left side of the key (opposite the rendering you included in the pictures) still has a really weird artifact.

Reading another part of your post - for these keys that have the same number of segments for width, I can just move the appropriate vertices without messing up the geometry?

And I'm trying to figure out what you're talking about with the support edges.  It seems like I have a lot to learn about modeling (and here I thought a piano key would be simple!!!).

[10DSpace · Accepted solution]

@scodavis 

I just pulled up your corrected file and the left side of the key (opposite the rendering you included in the pictures) still has a really weird artifact.

Sorry about that.  There is a very simple fix which will teach you about smoothing groups.  Go to back to the poly subobject level and select the polygons the left side of the key with the smoothing artifact and then "Clear all".

I thought I had selected all the polys on the front already and cleared the smoothing groups, but obviously not.  When you go back up to the Chamfer level the artifact should be gone (it was when I just did it).

 I can just move the appropriate vertices without messing up the geometry?

Sure, and that's where support edges can come in handy. Make a copy of the corrected G Key and select all of the vertices on the left side and move the verts in the x axis with the "World" or "View" Reference coordinate system selected.  You can easily change the width of the Key. A more useful example for a keyboard would be carefully selecting the just the front verts shown below and moving them if there are subtle differences in dimension there for different notes.    Obviously you have to make the correct selection of vertices for this to work.

[scodavis]

@10DSpace Thanks to your generous time, my keyboards are finally done.  Words can't express just how much I appreciate what you did.  With your permission, when I do my "how the organ works" video series, I would like to acknowledge you by name in the credits as there is no way I would have figured all this out on my own.  I also want to add more thanks for showing me how to do things rather than just fixing it for me.

Attached is a render with every single thing on the organ I have modeled so far.  It's going to be quite a cool project when it's all said and done!

[10DSpace]

@scodavis 

You are very welcome and you made my day.  I am impressed by how quickly you used what you learned to complete the project. Looks very good.   I would be honored to be credited in your video series and will send you my info via private message.  As a guitar player, I am also happy to help a fellow musician.  Good luck and please send me a link to your video series when it's done.