What can make this forum as good as it was in the late 90s?

[kris]

This post is borne of a post in the 'tips and trick' thread by @melissa.lax  , posted to a new thread so as not to be too OT.  

The original thread is here: http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/3ds-max-forum/share-your-favorite-tips-tricks-workflows-and-secrets-in...

>So I've heard a lot about the Max forums in the 90's. Please enlighten me, what can we bring back? 

It's a hard thing to say how to bring back that old flavor.  AD's past policies did nothing to help; after AD took over from Kinetix, they totally dumped the forums, three or four times.  All the content and history was lost, and we had to start over again from nothing.  At every reboot, they gave less and less resources to the forum, insofar as moderators or having staff dedicated to participating in it.  Both as a bug channel, and as a learning channel.  When it was Kinetix, the forum was an integral channel to reach the development team.  For many of the AD years, it felt like a total afterthought, a place where AD though it would save a few bucks by letting users deal with some of its support issues.  Speaking for myself, I eventually lost interest, and moved off to other boards, and eventually, stopped altogether as my own business became consuming.

The internet was also a very different place then.  The desire to help was greater, and the community was smaller.   Many of us had met several times in person at Siggraph.  A lot of the folks I used to 'hang' with around here are now senior at big studios, and don't have the time/need/interest to come back.  There were fewer outlets where one could participate ... youtube, as one example, didn't exist yet.  The software itself was young, and each new release was a significant improvement.  (That also died with AD's takover, too.)

What it comes down to, though, is that the owner of the forum needs to be supportive of it.  That means doing, as they have been recently, providing dedicated staff to keep on top of the goings on here, with the customer concerns.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  @Alfred.DeFlaminis is doing stunning work here, and is part of the reason I'm being more contributory.  He clearly has the resources (both in time and back end software) to be able to see what he needs to see to help; he has the ability to interface with the dev team, and organize issues.  He can create new bug reports out of posts.  It honestly feels too good to be true.

AD could provide direct incentives to its users.  Swag, perhaps, or any other types of "we appreciate your service to the community" actions that would show, just a little bit, that they do appreciate the fact that some users are helping others. A kudos is only worth something if an individual is missing that in their lives.  If the users taking the time to be here think it's worth while, they will stay, and a new strong community will form.  There are definitely a few folks here doing that already, out of the goodness of their hearts, which is great.   Doesn't hurt to have more, though.  This could also be done with contests, or other end-user oriented promotional activities.

But it also means having a sensible architecture to the forum; right now, it's a bit of a free for all (feels like it, anyway), where navigation ins't as easy as it should be.  Most of the time, I have no idea where I am in the structure of the forum.  AD also really likes making the "user experience" continuous across all its programs.  While that's understandable, some thought should also be paid to making genuine software specific communities.  Granted, there will never be the 'rivalry' between Max and Maya as in the days past, people who use max all of the time seem to have a different mindset than Maya folk, probably due to the different workflows and (typically) industries, which should be celebrated.  I should feel valued, not as a source of income, where the only interaction is to see how to get more money out of me.  But dumping data is never going to be ok.  Just as was done recently from the user voice > ideas.  AD is in the job of software; no reason why data can't be carried, in one way or another.

I may sound pretty upset with AD, and I am.  My post history probably has a few examples of me being very harsh.  I am, however, hopeful and open minded.  Actions speak more than policy statements and press releases.  The less a company does things because it thinks it knows what its users should want/need, and does what its users actually want/need, the better.  (Could be worse.  Just look at Microsoft!)  AD has often done things which were very thoughtful of its shareholders, and while that cannot be ignored, happy users will also make happy shareholders.

Kris.

[photodave]

With regards to the navigation I just noticed the breadcrumb NAV panel under the abnormally large header 😉 and although I can see the graphical aesthetic and intent I don't think that works too well as (for me anyway) it blends in and it feels awkward to have it right justified. I think it should maybe be some other colour other than 10% lighter grey than the header and stand out a little more. This is just more of a personal thing but thought I would throw that out there.

@Alfred.DeFlaminisOn the Siggraph idea I think that is a good one with getting face time with influential people at AD in regards not only to the Area but maybe Max and Maya as well. If I was able to go this year I would definitely sign up for that as so much can be lost in emails and forum posts and talking face to face an create new ideas and solve problems far faster.

@melissa.laxI also think its great that you are taking a more humble approach to investigate what the users are experiencing and feeling about the forums and that is incredibly positive from a users standpoint especially considering Ive been a registered user for (wow I feel old now after doing the math lol) we will just say roughly 2 decades haha the lower number is somehow more comforting 😉

Cheers,

-dave

[melissa.lax]

Hi @davidk,

Thanks for the suggestions on the search navigation bar of AREA, might I suggest you add this to http://autode.sk/3dsMaxYourIdeas? That way other users can vote on it and we can calibrate our resources accordingly. 

I'm happy to help and open to hearing you out, so please feel free to write your feedback here or send me a private message if you'd prefer to email/video chat. 

Thanks,

Melissa 

[melissa.lax]

@kris @photodave @Alfred.DeFlaminis @Anonymous @bob.bernstein

QUESTION OF THE DAY:

Which types of threads/actions should we start? should we invite industry experts to deconstruct their models? should we do design competitions? should we do webinars? 

[photodave]

---

@melissa.lax wrote:

@kris @photodave @Alfred.DeFlaminis @Anonymous @bob.bernstein

QUESTION OF THE DAY:

Which types of threads/actions should we start? should we invite industry experts to deconstruct their models? should we do design competitions? should we do webinars? 

---

I think all of the above are a great start for all levels of users.

Experts doing deconstructions of scenes or models or even materials and lighting on "how it was made" tutorials and or videos that users can download and review are a great resource.

Theme based competitions are great as well as they spark creativity and friendly competition as well as letting users see how other people approached the same theme/challenge which will also help drive the overall social experience as well as opening minds to different creative approaches they hadn't thought of before.

As for Webinars I personally like them as they are usually given by top creative or Dev people in the industries and you get first hand knowledge of different workflows and usually learn new tips and tricks and can be an invaluable learning tool for someone like myself with bad ADHD and I get bored easily in a classroom and have been known to nod off lol unless the speaker is awesome, but I can usually focus on webinars.Again must be made available for download for later review.

Cheers,

-dave

[photodave]

---

@melissa.lax wrote:

@Anonymous @Anonymous,

Thanks for the suggestions on the search navigation bar of AREA, might I suggest you add this to http://autode.sk/3dsMaxYourIdeas? That way other users can vote on it and we can calibrate our resources accordingly. 

I'm happy to help and open to hearing you out, so please feel free to write your feedback here or send me a private message if you'd prefer to email/video chat. 

Thanks,

Melissa 

---

@melissa.lax

I had thought that the forum you list above is for 3dsmax specific ideas and not really related to the forum navigation and functionality?

Cheers,

-dave

[Alfred.DeFlaminis]

Hello @photodave,

It's a tough scenario, I have no input into the website navigation.  I'll forward you message along though.  Thanks for your feedback.  The Siggraph gathering would likely be comprised of folks across M&E so Maya and Max would be a part of that possibly.  I'm spitballing right now but very interested in the user feedback. 

@melissa.lax,

I like webinars, especially if they are available afterwards too.  I like all those ideas but webinars are some of my favorites!  

Best Regards,

[bob.bernstein]

Melissa, 

From a training perspective, it feels to me that there are two basic ways of thinking required to experience the entirety of 3dsmax.  Now maybe that premise is absurd, the program is too big for anyone to be accomplished in everything....but who knows.  

I see the particle flow, and the MCG tool requiring a certain thinking process different from box modelling, and rendering.  Its more a programmers way of thinking with the MCG, particle flow, and perhaps even the new data channel modifier.  

It feels foreign to me, and so I don't really dig into those features.  

Maybe there is similarity to the functions I mentioned if looked at that way, and maybe a common basic approach could be reviewed?

If the idea is not achievable or not even interesting, please ignore.

[melissa.lax]

Hi @photodave

I just put your suggestion forward to the AREA team. 

Cheers,

Melissa

[adamk]

The community goes where the action is.  Content is king.  Due to the proliferation of other internet sites and the diversification of software tools - all the old power users spread out.  There were (and still are) better places to get feedback and problems solved.  Remaking the "AREA" a few years back seemed to be the nail in the coffin.  I don't think this site will change unless Autodesk puts some serious effort into getting those users back.   They seem to instead be more focused on sales than support.

[adamk]

@melissa.lax  Who are you trying to attract?  Seasoned veterans or noobs?  I would suggest the noobs will follow the pros.  I would also suggest that pros don't want another "gallery" or "tutorial" site.   And yes there are some structural things about this forum UI that could be better, but that's not a big factor.... Edit: like that fact that replies are not in line and it's hard to follow a conversation... 

[Anonymous]

Helllo Melissa.

In Russian Federation, we have resources about max, groups in social networks, where users helping each other. I participate in some of them for years. We have more then a lot of content. Same about design competitions.

There are a lot of sites, specified on learning content, tonns of video tutorials.

This forum is a mess - by design, readability, navigation and speed. It just can't become a platform for a such purpose.

So, if you want to concentrate users on autodesk resource, - need to replace engine and everything, then attract users here.

Take a look in galery - no likes given to the images. Traffic is low.

---

What i wrote next - is about ideas section and it's ideology. May be it's not in your competence, it's more like in line with the thread starter and professionals needs.

Was mentioned 9999 times before, so it's a tiny reminder.

I think the topic that causes the most concern between professionals is the way max evolves.

It looses competition to maya in animation and game industry.

It looses competition to houdini, c4d and maya in motion motion picture, vfx and video mapping.

It still stays on top in archviz, but it's mostly because there is a lot of assets available for this segment and GPU tools like lumion or UE are not evolved yet to win the competition.

Max has the ability to handle large scenes, it has a variety of import options and a fast viewport, but it doesn't have effective native tools even for archviz.

Let's see...

Most used render engines are - vray and corona. Scatters (trees and grass) - forest pack and multiscatter. Sky with clouds? May be ozone, people are using hdri. At the same time software like lumion or unreal engine gives real time sky.

Fluid, smoke simulation - phoenix fd, fume fx. Hair? Naitive hairFur is pain, only ornatrix can do the trick. Particles - TP, krakatoa. Noises - Bercon.

Dynamics? massFx is a joke, need a realtime on like physx, with fast baking and without bugs.

Scripts are used even for a such basic operations, as uv randomization, multi texturing, basic poly modeling, editing mass parameters, aligning, finding missing assets and collecting scenes.

Character animation - no humanIK and modern mocap options, saving-loading tools, only obsolete morpher, character studio and cat.

Booleans? Dynamic booleans are missing. Booleans with topology optimization are missing.

Automatic retopology tools are missing. Sculpting and canvas painting is a joke.

Camera mapping tools? Scripts again.

Plants generation/animation? No such tools. Software used: speedtree cinema, onyxtree etc.

Instancing external resources? Containers always were broken, xRef scenes missing global animation offset and have issues with network loading.

Motion design? No such tools.

Integration with AE, nuke and other composing software? Once max has a state sets with compositor link and export button. In 2016 version it was optimized for a normal behavior, but it can export scene only for AE 2014CC and below. That was last version of it. Compositor link doesn't supported since then.

Baking to mesh animation tools from multiple objects? no native tools. Exporting such mesh to alembic or other format? Nope.

So, max is missing effective basic tools and unified interface for them.

Artist needs first to learn all the way down about all those plugs and scripts and how they behave, find them, dowload tonns of assets, modify them to achieve good looking images. If you'll read all those stuff I wrote, you probably will be concerned. People who are starting to work within all this zoo is simply stunned.

I have 20 years of experience in industry and most time I spent - researching about how to achive results with those tools and then fighting it's bugs, wich staying there unfixed for decades.

Let's presume autodesk doesn't want to kill 3ds max slowly.

Then we need to concentrate community forces, active professionals here, to achieve some kind of plan, how to transform max into a fast evolving multipurpose application. Developers team is pushing perfomance, and it's a good thing. But the vital tools stays untouched.

Referring to a forum section of ideas I see it as:

>[ idea [votes] ]

 +[comments [votes]] +[additions for idea selected from comments by elite/devs]

[

idea1,

idea2,

...

ideaN ] >move>

>[ category of ideas [votes]] united by interface or purpose

 +[ideas array]

 +[comments[votes]] +[interface ideas [votes]] + [summary of iterface ideas, edited by elite/devs]

If this approach works, we'll have some categories, vital for implementation into max. Not an array of simple ideas, but already discussed parts of modification plan.

Parallel to this we need to find out the best way, how to integrate all this into max.

The trouble at this point is - obsolete program core, scene ideology and UI. It was designed primary for the 1 core processor systems and not adapted for a fast major changes. So every time max improved - appearing bugs are kiliing all the rulez. That's why basic tools are staying unchanged for decades.

In a short perspective maxscript and mcg will do the trick, but for the real changes we'll need an unified modular high level interface, wich can accept universal plugs, perform with all avaible cores, GPUs, and also give access for a realtime low level visual coding (like extended mcg).

It must be separated from viewport, reanimateable from hangs and code errors. There was an excalibur project (XBR) back in time with some of these ideas and even more.

All 3d apps are doing the same things, better or worse. The main difference between them from the user's point of view is an interface.

May be there is a way to create multiapp plugs for a new platform, universal connectors for the most of Autodesk's 3d apps. And then sted by step unify apps on a new core instead of putting efforts into cosmetic changes of multiple software brands.

This is a сontroversial offer, because programs architectures and internal script languages are very different, and no one could predict how computing platforms and operationg systems will change. Now it's moving to multiprocessing, later it could become a quantum based, remote cloud systems, AI e.t.c. VR can become holographic, mind integrated.

But in nearest 10 years I don't think there will be a major changes. The rulers will be VR and growing computing speed via multicore systems.

So, we need a fast adaptation of 3ds max for these events, crossoftware pipeplines and basic needs.

[StephenMF]

I use a RSS reader called www.netvibes.com as my entrance to the Area.

Gives me a quick overview, and is easy to jump through threads and easy to jump to the original source if I want to reply to something.

It's really sort of a workaround to some of the problems of the AREA website.

Enjoy.

Stephen

[melissa.lax]

Hi @StephenMF,

Nice work! soo nice to see how dedicated you are to our Max community. 

[melissa.lax]

Hi @Anonymous,

I want to thank you for raising your comments. I've highlighted your comments and suggestions to the team. 

We're contemplating on them and hope to take them into consideration for future planning. 

Best,

Melissa

[Anonymous]

Thank you Melissa.

There are suggestions about the forum performance, may be there is a way to

1. Copy forum databases to a separate server. Decrease timeout parameter.

2. Remove whole autodesk header/footer/content which slows down page loading. At least make a parallel version without them.

3. Insert navigation jump box / forum tree. Usually such forms are included in a forum engine or available as plugins.

About learning content - you can make a topic for suggestions and pin it to the top of forum list. But it will not give any real approximation of max users needs, because a very microscopic part of them are using this forum.

From my perspective, I'd say MCG needs more promotion and covering in video lessons in addition to youtube official channel content. The more people  learn it, the more modifiers we'll have.