Student > Commercial Pricing for 2013 increases by... £4000

[TeeJayEllis]

I'm a student just graduating from an Architecture degree and have been using Max Student edition for the past few years. Just before 2013 was announced I called my reseller to talk about upgrading my license to a commercial seat and I was told that I could upgrade for around £600.

Obviously this was a fantastic price and a great way for students to 'get started' in the commercial world. However, with 2013 round the corner, I figured I would wait a couple weeks.

So, I called up on Friday to make my purchase, only to be told that students are no longer able to upgrade a student license to just Max or Maya, only to the commercial 'Suite', the cheapest of which is £4050 + VAT.

The problem is that not only is this an incredibly brutal move for students who are most likely not in a position to find that kind of money, but there seems to be a lot of confusion over whether this is really the case.

On top of this, I have no need for 80% of what is included in the suite. I only want Max and yet I'm now expected to pay for for MudBox, Softimage, Maya, MotionBuilder and Sketchbook? I mean, who would even need ALL of them? Some modeller, animator, FX artist, product designer superstar? Even in the Building Suites I would only need Max and ACAD, yet I appear to have no choice but to pay huge money for a collection of apps I won't use.


The resellers are saying that is how it is, and Autodesk won't talk to consumers about pricing since they only deal with resellers. The thing is, someone pointed out this to me:

http://www.novedge.com/products/3743?AFTK=FRGL&gclid=CIXK7vba168CFUFo4Aoda33_CQ

Now, that's obviously for the US, and I'm in the UK but if that's legit, then I'm not sure who to believe.

Is anyone more clued up on this or could someone from Autodesk who knows what is going on please clarify whether we can or cannot upgrade to Max/Maya standalone?

[TheAngryBeaver]

My thoughts.

At this very moment in the 3ds Max software department pretty much everyone are frantically running around, finger pointing and asking how did such a stinky beta version (i.e. 2013) ever get the green light for public release.

Anyway, they've thrown a lot of extra unplanned resources on the project trying to get a service pack out ASAP and accordingly the software development costs have gone through the proverbial roof.

And the upshot of all this is that they have to get their money back somehow.

That's how we consumers are treated.

[adam.t]

From my understanding of previous posts from Ken, resellers have some degree of autonomy when it comes to setting prices (or in this case, setting availability - i.e. offering to sell you a bundle rather than the individual product), so this may have little to do with Autodesk themselves. They don't call us "Rip-Off Britain" for nothing.

Have you tried contacting other resellers besides your usual?

Failing that, it's worth calling Autodesk's sales team directly. I often get follow-up calls from them and they're a nice bunch to talk to - speaking to someone in person can resolve this sort of thing in minutes instead of days.

[TeeJayEllis]

Have you tried contacting other resellers besides your usual?

Failing that, it's worth calling Autodesk's sales team directly. I often get follow-up calls from them and they're a nice bunch to talk to - speaking to someone in person can resolve this sort of thing in minutes instead of days.

Yeah I've spoken to BlueGFX, Escape and Man&Machine. All of them had to 'check' before they gave me the same response; that you can only upgrade an EDU license to a Suite.

However, I've just been talking to a guy in the US who has spoken with Novedge directly and they are convinced you can purchase the EDU Suite, and then upgrade either Maya or Max as a standalone seat just like you could with 2012 and prior. I find it difficult to believe that there would be different rules for the US and UK, I mean, sure the prices will be different, but not the actual upgrade paths.

They are also saying that the same applies for the licenses acquired under the Autodesk Unemployment Training Program, and they too can be upgraded from a Suite to a single license for the same discounted price, now, I don't qualify for the AUTP but it's more fuel for the argument that the resellers either don't know what they're talking about or are trying to pull a 'Suites only' to boost sales revenue.

Hopefully I can get to the bottom of this tomorrow with Autodesk direct. Hopefully the resellers are just trying to push the Suites and you can still upgrade just Max. Failing that, I've noticed a couple of websites still selling the 2012 EDU Suites, and there's a slim chance you may be able to upgrade from them, although I'd guess the same rules will likely apply.

[TeeJayEllis]

So I've spoken to Autodesk UK this morning who have confirmed what I initially suspected; there are no upgrade paths from EDU licenses to individual products, only Suites.

Last month (prior to 2013) I would have bought a student license of the Ents Creation Suite for £165, and I could then upgrade that to a commercial seat of Max for £600. So, £765 in total.

Now however, it would cost me £165 for the Ents Creation Suite student license, and £4860 to upgrade it to a commercial Suite.

A standard license of Max is around £3500 so it would be cheaper to just buy that.

In any case, as a student considering freelancing after graduation, there's no way I'm in a position to find anything close to £5000 so unfortunately I won't be purchasing anything.

I'm not sure whether any Autodesk reps read these boards but I'd quite like to understand the motivation behind this unbelievably high price increase and would also like to voice my disappointment that they have moved commercial seats so out of reach for us student graduates.

[spacefrog_]

Thanks for you time and endurance digging up all this details and reporting them here...
This gives important information on how those "price" things are currently evolving at Autodesk...

[adam.t]

Indeed, I don't understand any of this myself, it really doesn't fit with common sense.

Of all the people who have the least amount of spending power, it's people looking for their first real job. If our reseller turned around to me and said that I couldn't buy Max anymore, it's a Suite or nothing, they'd lose our business, it's as simple as that...why would I buy Motionbuilder for texture artists? Or Mudbox for animators?

You can joke about monopolistic behaviour, but if this isn't representative of it then I really don't know what is. Sad, really. It's a kick in the shins for us who hire artists too, because we want them to be up on the latest releases and not stuck with knowledge of a version 3-5 years out of date, and I won't touch a freelancer using out-of-date software, it's just not worth the wrangling. Yes it's up to them to stay up to date, but if they can't afford to get on the treadmill (which is what is) in the first place...

[timd1971]

Autodesk is FAILING. First with max, now the pricing. They will eventually collapse. Its not like they are producing tangible items which they would be stuck with since they charge too much.... But its software... So all they have is Overhead.... They better get their head out of their ass. Screw these reselllers... Nothing but creepy car salesmen. Just see the crap direct at a competive rate... I.e. Luxology Modo sure has this down! Maxon C4D may soon follow. Hell, most of their software is givin away via there trials VERY EASILY anyways to those who know "what to do with em". Damn dummies screwing themselves over and over every year. My goodness.

[adam.t]

I'm afraid you're underestimating the scope of Autodesk's business, the greater portion of which is less about individuals and more about larger structures that maintain heavy investment over many years not just in software, but in people who use a particular software platform.

This doesn't reduce the indignation felt by charging individuals the same rates as companies, I do feel it's unfair and perhaps unwise to pass the buck like this, but that's not an issue that will single-handedly bring down Autodesk.

As far as pricing goes, I think 3DS Max is priced appropriately - there's a fairly predictable curve in 3D software pricing, and you often get what you pay for, whether it's Modo at the leaner end or Houdini up at the top-end of the spectrum.

If anything I'd advocate a higher subscription tier if it included increased support and (Houdini-style) daily builds. This would be a fair way for Autodesk to increase their profits without passing the buck. We've invested hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years in purely pipeline and workflow, and we'd welcome a similar kind of commitment to our business interests from our main software vendor. They get twice as much dosh from us every year, we get instant responses to major issues (which in turn feed down to public service packs), and the little guys get a foot up on the ladder, adding to the skills pool - everybody wins.

This is creative software, it's being used by creative people and supposedly developed by a creative company: it really can't be that hard to come up with a creative (in a good way) business model that benefits everyone.

[PiXeL_MoNKeY]

That is a typical business practice for software vendors and isn't limited to Autodesk. You can upgrade to a higher priced alternative, but not downgrade.

I think what has been partially left out of the conversation is that (from my findings) there is no standalone student license any more (not sure when that changed). Instead you purchase a perpetual student license of a suite and you can upgrade to that Suite. It appears with 2013 the only option is the Entertainment Creative Suite Ultimate. So when he is trying to upgrade it sounds like that is the only option.

-Eric

[dreamlandmodels]

Hope this does not make you guys mad, but try to think of it this way.
You got to use Max for the years you were in school for a pretty low price
but now that you are in the real world, you will have to do what we have all done, and pay real world prices. It might be hard to accept but that is a fact of life. Just a part of growing up.
Time to work for real guys. 🙂
I hope you have great success with Max and your new careers!
Kind regards, Tom

[TeeJayEllis]

I agree that there is inevitably going to be a difference between the cheap/free student licenses and the commercial seats, but this isn't a case of 'Oh how dare they charge that much, that's a lot of money', it's a case of 'I'm in X thousand pounds worth of debt, and I just don't have £5k to spend on software'.

I'm not sure I agree that it should be part of 'growing up' though; I'm 27 and it seems I've still got a lot of growing up to do before I agree that £5000 is a suitable amount to ask from fresh graduates.

I just thought the old system was a great way for Autodesk to get students (who are obviously going to be short on cash) onto the subscription ladder.

In any case, I've now bought Cinema4D. It's a less supported package, and far from industry standard but it'll more than get the job done, and along with VRay, it will cost me a lot less than Max would've done.

[PiXeL_MoNKeY]

In any case, I’ve now bought Cinema4D. It’s a less supported package, and far from industry standard but it’ll more than get the job done, and along with VRay, it will cost me a lot less than Max would’ve done.

It really depends on where you are working and what you are doing. It does have an install base and there are places using it. As long as it produces the material you need and pays the bills, then it is the right package. The right package is the one that gets the job done within budget and on time. Do that and you will be in good shape.

You will just need to find somewhere else to get peer-to-peer support, since I doubt you will find what you need here.

-Eric

[Doughboy12]

Their job is to get you hooked on the software, not help you make money from it...seems they may have missed the mark where you are concerned...Cheers.

[TeeJayEllis]

Yep, they blew it for sure, no way I'm supporting that kind of stupidity. And not just me. I just spoke to a guy who's entire graduating class purchased Modo in protest.

The unfortunate thing is that unless every class in the world does that from now on, it'll barely have any impact whatsoever.

[TheAngryBeaver]

Right on Man, I am sure you have made the right decision.

As an ardent Max user (at least up until now) I've recently downloaded the Cinema 4D trial and I must say it looks beautiful.

Max is dying. 1992 - 2013 RIP.

[Anonymous]

Another modo switcher here, I have been a loyal 3dsMax user and subscriber since Max 4, and sadly Autodesk has decided to increase subscriptions by 45% for us in the UK starting next year, enough is enough!

I bought modo 601 and it rocks, the renderer is superb and with the new deformation tools it has everything I need, check out what's new in 601 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zdlz66Gmxq8
I won't be renewing my Max subscription

[cresshead]

As a 3dsmax user from 2.5 (1999) and being on subscription since version 7 it's sad to see where all this is heading.

I added Modo 601 a few weeks back as a "plan B".

My subs are up for renewal in June, I like many people want an affordable subscription model

3dsmax is a fantastic application that i have been using a long time now, but there are alternatives out there if Autodesk want to play "squeeze their user base". If my employer will stump up the cost of subs i'll keep on using 3dsmax although I will also let him know there's alternatives.

If in the near future it goes to a suite option only along with the + £1000 per year subscription, im not sure i'll be able to stay aboard,

Autodesk do not own "3d"

[Anonymous]

Tom it's ok for you to be preaching about real world pricing, but as you live in the States, your version of 'real world' is a LOT different ours in Europe and the rest of the 95% of the world that's not north American,

[Anonymous]

Personally, I feel that the student/commercial model of pricing is far too limited. The fact of the matter is, the commercial world isn't all huge render farms or studios with multiple seats cranking away at 3D work every day. Every company I've ever worked for has been a small, flexible business that hires jack-of-all-trades and generalists. These companies would be happy to have a single Autodesk seat, but the pricetag is too hefty to justify, for what amounts to a few weeks of work here, a few weeks of work there. The pricing structure doesn't reflect the reality of a huge chunk of the entertainment industry. Small boutiques are drive by freelance, contract work. This month it might be a bunch of straight editing with light motion graphics, next two months could be working on post for an indie feature, and after that maybe a two-week ad campaign that requires some 3D elements. It's not worth dropping $5K, $6K, $7K on what amounts to preparedness for the occasional gig. And that's small businesses. For the freelance generalist, particularly working in the indie world, it's even worse. An entire month can pay as much as a week of commercial work, there's no room for software that might provide a couple days work if it costs two months' wages.

Frankly, I believe there needs to be a third tier in the pricing structure, or a month-to-month subscription service at a reasonable rate, much like Adobe has instituted with the new Creative Cloud memberships. A small firm -- or a freelance individual -- could easily subscribe to the Autodesk suite for a month when it suited them, then lose access to the software for the next three months when it wasn't necessary, then re-up his/her subscription when it became relevant again. In addition, when a project has a single generalist, not all the products are needed at the same time.

I understand that Autodesk caters to corporate clients, and that's fine, but these are wonderful tools and there ought to be a way for students who learn on this suite to continue working with it, professionally OR personally, in ways that don't break the bank.

(Hey, what about that "personal edition" pricing? I dunno, I come from the indie world where pretty much any project is an exercise in losing money but creating art, rather than generating revenue. The accessibility of Final Cut Pro made it -- an inferior NLE -- far more installed that Avid Media Composer. I don't think any of us want to have to use the FCP of 3D, do we?)