Heavy Multitasking slows down the machine? Not under Win7 but under Win10

[3d-labor]

Hello, I want to hear some experiences from others to solve my problem. I changed from Win7 to Win10 in January 2021 (dont touch a running system). I usually worked with 2 sessions of MAX, AutoCAD and Photoshop in parallel, under Win7 with no noticible loss in performance on heavy load. I changed to Win 10 and the trouble began. On the same machine (six core from 2012) much slower if opening more than one main program. So I bought a very good computer (Ryzen9 5900x, 32 GB RAM 3200 Mhz, Nvidia Quadro P5000, System SSD, SSD for the assets, HDRI-Skies, textures etc.) When I work with one session 3dsMAX and AutoCAD all is fluently. But if I open a second session of MAX and also Photoshop the system begins to react slower and slower. The processor shows under 10% load and RAM is filled with max 13GB of 32GB. Sometimes I have the impression, it runs quicker when I only minimize the program windows. May be the graphics card problem (3 Monitors with 1902x1200) But - its a Quadro P5000 with 16GB RAM...

Does anyone have the same experiences and possibly have a solution. I did all what one normally would do in that case (cancel hidden tasks and services etc.)

[RobH2]

I have been using Win10 for years and began to suffer from some multitasking slowdowns. I researched it a bit and found that many programs will try to hog as much processor time as they can. Not sure why Win7 was different. But I found a program that kind of manages the threads and processes. I was having a situation in Win10 where my entire Win10 OS was brought to its knees and crippled when I was rendering a frame from Max. It was very frustrating. 

So, I researched it a bit and found a program that manages things. This is not an ad for the program....I'm just telling you what I use because there are a few. But I chose Process Lasso. It can be configured so that Max, or Photoshop or whatever, leaves a few processes open for other Windows tasks. It's not perfect, but at least my machine is not brought to its knees by just rendering a frame. 

[3d-labor]

Thank you for that advice. This is very good for all, who want to work while rendering. In my configuration I sent render jobs to my render machine (Threadripper 2950x) with backburner. As I have a powerful machine as workstation (Ryzen9 5900x) I could ad some render work here too. But sadly rendering is not the cause for my problems. It is simply the fact, that regardless how many programs were open under Win7 I was able to work fluently in my daily work. I have searched really a lot. For example I found this "As it turned out after a detailed examination, the extra time with Windows 10 arises when creating new processes. The call of the system function CreateProcess took at least 300 ms up to 600 ms for Windows 10. Doesn’t sound like much, but Windows 7 did it in two to three milliseconds." This is a lot more and it is said to be caused by the "Control Flow Guard" to prevent exploits. So I disabled it (I normally have my workstation not connected to the internet) and had a little better performance. I hope now for Windows 11, some said it has a up to 15 percent better performance. My most dramatic problem what causes slow working is the poor performance of the material editor with Vray. This is a known issue and caused by the implementation of the so called qt routines for managing the GUI into MAX sometimes ago. I could write more on the search to solve my performance problem, but I´m a freelancer and have no time to do that. Everybody should be able to work fluently on modern hardware without going deep into the operating system to find the brakes.  But I will try your "Proces lasso". Sometimes I need mor render power. Thanks!

[RobH2]

Thanks for the good information. I too have noticed the V-Ray material editor issues and it is not as fast and smooth as it used to be. I've gotten used to the bottlenecks though. We have similar machines so I'd guess we have similar performance issues.

It's unfortunate there are so many bad people in the world who exist just to attack and ruin the lives of other people and we need things like 'Control Flow Guard.' For every good thing in the world it seems like there is some degenerate who will use it in a dishonest way and mess it up for everyone. Our machines are massively slowed down by the extra anti-exploit and anti-virus code that constantly ties up resources. But this is a rant for another time and place. 

Since Win7 is now unsupported you'll just have to join the rest of us with Win10 and embrace what it has to offer. On some level I agree that you should not have to go under the hood of your OS to be able to use it. That's what made Macintosh so successful, they just work. But what we do is not ordinary. We push every component of the system to the limit. And to be in the 3d profession, I think you need to be a bit of an IT person as well.

I for one welcome that for a reason you might not expect. Our business is so competitive that it's getting harder and harder to find projects without lowering our prices to ridiculous levels. I for one hope that lack of computer IT skills might keep some people out of the business. I think 3d programs should be harder to use instead of easier so that you'd have to develop serious "skills" to be able to use it well. It is kind of like that on some level, but the software has gotten so friendly that my little sister could actually make something cool if she wanted to. That's not good for us as it just adds 1000s of new people to compete with. Again, I get off track as this too is a soapbox for another time. 

So I've just gotten used to Win10s oddities. I'm able to get my work done and it's been really stable. It's been much more stable than Win7 ever was for me. I've never had to completely reinstall Win10 to get of a jam and I had to do it every year or so with Win7. So that's a good thing. Yea, try a process management software. It's made a world of difference for me. 

[3d-labor]

Hello Rob,

I really enjoyed your answer, which is not only a technical one but also a political. Yes, if we wouln´t have to deal with all the security load I think the hardware would give us 50% more power and speed. And yes, our biggest problem are the more and more people who think, they can do the same as we do but for third the price. They don´t have to feed families. But much more we are hit by globalisation where someone can order visualisations in Russia or Vietnam also for a fraction of our prices. But we have some good advantages: we speak the same language as our clients, the can communicate much better with them, we mostly are near the building sites for getting additional information or photos. I myself worked as architect for 15 years before I began as "Freelancer". So I also can use my architectural and technical engineer knowledge. And "sadly" I´m a computer freak since 30 years, so I can do all myself in that field.

I just installed "Process Lasso" and have the impression, that it brings some performance back from scratch. I will buy a lecense and want to look how to get more out of it. I like these kind of software very much. A clear and easy GUI but also a lot of options. On the other hand it doesn´t bring back the fluently work with the material editor or the render setup window. Imade a test. I loaded AutoCAD, Photoshop, Acrobat Reader and two sessions of 3dsMAX. It lasts 15 seconds to open the render setup. Only with one session 3dsMAX loaded (no other programm running) the time to show the render setup window is 10 seconds. That is too much. Did you notice a better performance in MAX 2022 than in 2021? Would you suggest me to update?  (I´m not sure if all my plungins and professional (bought) scripts are ready for MAX 2022)

[RobH2]

I appreciate your perspective on globalization, pricing and language. I agree with you on that. I'm a computer nerd myself, having built probably 100 machines. I haven't bought a workstation since my first Gateway 90 machine I bought in 1994. It had 4MB of ram and is cost me $800 to upgrade it to 8MB Ram. 

Process Lasso is not perfect, but it did at least let me do other things instead of having my machine nearly freeze up when rendering. I don't have Autocad but I do have some other 'heavy' programs. Let me open all the things you have open and see what performance I get. So you are saying that it takes 15-seconds to open the Render Setup window (F10)? 

Have you run any benchmark software. I use Performance Test, Cinebench and VRay Benchmark all the time to see if things are still fast. I'm getting really good benchmarks. I wonder what benchmarks you might get. It sounds like something else might be slowing you down. I don't know what, but it sounds like it. My 'Render Setup' panel open in 3-seconds and we have similar machines. 

[RobH2]

I'm thinking there is something else hampering your machine's performance. I have a ton of stuff open and I'm getting 60fps in Max while a V-Ray IPR window is running on another instance of Max. Plus, I have a ton of other GPU and CPU intensive software open, all with files opened in them. I'll post my Task Manager list. 

You might be running out of RAM and your machine is using the 'Paging File' or something. Believe it or not, 32GB of RAM is not much these days. I'm showing 29GB of mine being used with all the files open and the OS. Once the OS starts to Page out, everything screeches to a snail's pace. 

Maybe run some benchmarks. I'd like to see what they show. 

[3d-labor]

My machine is very good, it has a normal Vray benchmark score for the processor and a very good PC-Mark Score (see attachment). I have disabled paging file (some say it improves performance), switched of Memory compression and other things. The processor runs at about 4,5GHz with open VFB. As I said it is not a rendering thing because I have  a render machine. It is only the fact, that the reaction time becoming slower when much programs are loaded, what I didn´t had under Win7. I really didn´t reinstall Win7 on my old 6 Core machine, now the PC of my daughter. I bought it 2012 and put it out of my service January 2021. Withh this machine I never had BSODs beside some BSODs caused by the network adapter connected to my render machine (Win10) via Remote Desktop. In the atachment a movie how long it takes to open Render Setup (F12). Only 3dsMAX and AutoCAD loaded. The problem wit the slow material editor is discussed here.

https://forums.chaosgroup.com/forum/v-ray-for-3ds-max-forums/v-ray-for-3ds-max-problems/1082405-ui-d...

Lele of Chaos Group gave some explanation about the qt thing and sugests to edit a system variable, which really gives some improvements.

[RobH2]

I think part of the problem might be in the post I attach. Lele says, "Ensure you don't have side-stuff going on on the first CPU core, as it's all single-core action for UIs."

If you have a lot of programs open and they are all hitting the first CPU core, that might be causing the Issue. Do you really need all of those other programs open every day? I know in a perfect world you'd like to, but maybe the work around is that for some of them maybe you close them after you use them. For instance, I'll use Photoshop for a few minutes and then go to Max for an hour or two. I don't use Max, Photoshop, Max, Photoshop, Max....you get the idea...back to back flipping between them quickly very often. I generally just have Outlook Email, Chrome and Max open all the time. I get what I feel is great fluidity and performance. If I need Photoshop (it loads slower these days too) I just open it, work on a texture, etc., and close it. It might be 4-5 hours before I need it again. 

I dislike workarounds for things that should just work, but it's what I seem to have to do a lot these days. So, I just try not to have too many programs open at the same time. Plus, I have Process Lasso setup on Max so that three threads in the middle were disabled thinking that other programs could use them. I'm now going to disable the first three threads instead to take Max off of the first CPU core. I'll see if that helps. That's one good feature of Process Lasso, you can go into each program you want and change the processor 'Affinity'. Instead of changing Max to 'not use' threads 0-2, I could just change Photoshop, Outlook, Acrobat, ect., to ignore threads 0-2. That would leave threads 0-2 available for Max. I might try that too. 

I didn't try the 'Environment Variable' suggestion from Lele. One user said he forgot he tried it and spent 3-days trying to figure out why his performance was horrible. When he remembered he used the variable, he reverted back and was OK again. 

Anyway, let me know what you find out. I don't really have any complaints so I'm not really changing anything right now except for the Affinity. But I hope you find some settings that work better for you. I'll keep an eye on this as it's an interesting conversation. Since I work alone I never know what's "normal" when I see a lag. I often wonder if other people have the same lag. Now I know the Slate Material Editor is not "just me" and that others have it too. While that's not a good lag to have, it makes me feel better knowing it's not something wrong with my installation. 

Keep us posted on your progress...

[3d-labor]

I will add memory now. Short before my holiday I got erratic behaviour after hitting render. Then I saw, that (at the frist time for me) the memory was fully used. So I will do an upgrade here and hope, that also the slow behaviuor under heavy multitasking is  gone. I hope, that 128GB of the right RAM will work from scratch (or with some edits of the profiles).

[RobH2]

Great, I hope that solves it for you. Post and update when you find out. 

[domo.spaji]

That won't solve anything.

It will make already truly inefficient system more inefficient.

We all have them, only thing that worst cases ending in signatures😁

What is "Heavy Multitasking" here? Heavy for whom?

We are loading  multiple programs, having 'em all opened  in same time - so what?

They are laying in background with their part of memory taken, waiting to leave all others and play with them!

While this is called multitasking questioning your hardware here is wrong,.

As is wrong to expect to gain performance from some multicore beasts in this type of multitasking.

Most simple said, if there is no "Push Me And Wait" button in some app - forget all that cores.

All that actions like adding/changing Environment Variable could be reason for your problems.

Forget "Tune-up" apps for windows- no real use of them any more.

Tune up all visual and performance settings in Max, defaults are the same and ridiculously low in years. All to max😁

Except AO int./fade, lower that, that is ridiculously high and ugly in newer versions.

Don't listen to Lele...

"Lele says, "Ensure you don't have side-stuff going on on the first CPU core..."

Not after this😁

[3d-labor]

To explain what I mean with heavy multitasking I decribe all open programs in my daily working environment under Win7/64 with 32GB RAM, i7-3930K, Quadro P4000

- 2 instance of 3dsMAX 2019

- Autocad 2019 (mostly 3-4 drawings open)

- Photoshop CS6 (I know, a liitle old but without paying a rent per month)

- Directory Opus File Manager in combination with Listary (Quick File Search)

- MemoMaster (Data Base Program to store all info I want to store)

- XNView

- Kaspersky Internet Security

- DisplayFusion (Monitor management for my 3 monitors)

With these programs open I had no problems regarding multitasking. Surely I had to wait longer to open programs or scene files but inside the programs fluent work with good reaction of dialog windows and so on. But no crashes or BSODs, only some crashes of 3dsMAX from time to time, which is normal since years...

Then I decided to switch to Win10/64. On the same machine but all fresh installed. After that the speed of work in the programs mentioned above went down. Also I was not able to use 2 instance of MAX as before. The second open session was noticeable slower and crashes more often than ever, especially after opening the material editor (I use VRay). So I decided to invest in new hardware. I bought a Ryzen9 5900x with 32GB (I typical used no more the 16GB of it) and a used Quadro P5000  and installed all new. After that the overall performance of the machine is very good. It has a very good result in PCMark or 3dmark tests. As long as I use only one session of MAX and one session of AutoCAD all is fine. If I open Photoshop or a second session of MAX things get slow. The time to open render setup window is above 10 seconds. The same with the Material Editor. It flickers on and of and sometimes MAX crashes simply by open SME.

The cause why I want to buy more RAM ist that my recent project is larger than most others of mine and I had an error notification regarding insufficient RAM.

To solve problems I dive not too deep into the system as I don´t want to disturb a running system. I use ProjectLasso, which helped a litte, I don´t use an anti virus program because all said Defender is enough. I installed the latest updates MAX 2021.3.2, which also seems to run better. I also dont use an tune up tools beside CCleaner to clean my registry from time to time (but not as a permanent background process). The only system variables I changed according to Leles tip regarding the CME speed are the  QT_ANGLE_PLATFORM=d3d9 and the QT_OPNGL=angle and it brings some speed improvement on my system. But as I said, if I have all the above mentioned programs open under Win10 it don´t allow me to work as fluently as under Win7 with weaker hardware. For example when I work in the normal Windows Explorer and change a folder the time until I see the content of a folder suddenly when there is no other program open. If I open all these programs it can be up to 2 seconds until I see the content. May be that is normal now, but I had better times. May be I await too much.

-

[3d-labor]

Hello RobH2,

it seems that I found at least on cause for my problem. After I switched of my multi monitor management software DisplayFusion the overall system performance is better and, most important, I can now work with two or three sessions of MAX without problems. Only probem now is the slow performance with the CME or SME with VRay and the long time to open the Render window. Sadly I dont have no good monitor management now, but I will wait until Win11 ist out. They told they will have integrated multi monitor support with features which it today only comes with third party software. Interestingly! I work with 2 monitors since 2007 and with 3 monitors since 2014. Now my "most loved" OS will get tools for that. Quick response, isn´t it? May be that DisplayFusion get´s an update, because the support there is very good. I explained my problem in the forum of Binary Fortress, the company of DisplayFusion.

[RobH2]

I'm glad to hear that you've found some of the causes of slow down. I don't know what your monitor management software does exactly, but I use 3 monitors without any management besides what NVidia does by default without many issues. The main issue is font sizes on large HD monitors running at 3840x2160. But it's minimal with a few registry tweaks. 

My Render window takes some time to open as well so maybe that's normal. But, once open, I leave it open so that's more of a workflow thing instead of a problem. I have a script in my Workspace Manager that opens the Render window automatically when Max opens and I just move it off to my left monitor and it lives there all the time. 

Thanks for the update. I'm glad things are better. I too look forward to Windows 11. It sounds good so far and it's not supposed to "break" anything. Programs are supposed to run on it just like they do on Windows 10, at least, that's what they are saying...  We'll see...lol.... 

[3d-labor]

Nvidia has also a monitor management software called nView. I tried it some years ago and found that DisplayFusion meets my needs better. Latest version of nView is from 2018, so I didn´t try it once more. What DisplayFusion does for me: You can define in which area of the monitor every program starts, you can add icons to the title bars of programs which give easy access to move windows in a desired direction, to the next monitor or spread a window over all monitors or a always on top button. You can do much more with it, but mostly I use the mentioned functions. It is the mightiest software for monitor management and surley too much, but I found none, which has all the needed features in one program. I worked today several hours with no problems, so it seems to be really  DisplayFusion which caused the problems. Nevertheless, I will add more memory after I finish my project...

[3d-labor]

Hello RobH2,

a little update. I have changed the CPU two days ago. It is now a 5950x with 16 cores. I did´nt expecting much regarding the overall performance since the single core performance is the same. I did it for quicker calculate the IPR in VRay. Bur I´m a little bit surprised, that the overall performance is now better. I have no problems with two sessions of MAX even with the multi monitor managing software in use. The speed of working with more programs doesn´t decrease that much. Sometimes I think that a 5900x is internally the same as the 5950x, only with a dead core and they deactivate 4 cores and say, it is now a 5900x 12 core processor. And this lead to more performance loss under some circumstances. Only an assumption of mine. I´ve read an article with similar problems under https://uk.pcmag.com/processors/129777/amd-ryzen-9-5900x. Who knows. Next step is adding memory and wait for Win11 ( the 21H2 Update seems to be a bad joke of MS)

Best regards, Holger

[RobH2]

This is really good news. Thanks for updating and letting me know. I think you may be on your way to getting back up to speed and then some. 

[domo.spaji]

You just changed the CPU?

Not any software changes, reinstalling?

[3d-labor]

No other changes. Before the replacment I set the BIOS to default (no other BIOS, mine is from 04/07/21). I had only changed a setting regarding the power for the USB-Ports  (when the computer is in energy saving mode or off you can normally charge your mobile or other things via USB, but it needs more standby power - I switched it of). I simply had no time for experiments with overclocking and similar before. Temperture is about the same with the old CPU. No changes to other things. Switched of the computer, changed the CPU (watercooled) and switched on the computer - that´s all. I was happy, that it was a flawless process.