Has Autodesk given up on shininess?

[Anonymous]

For months, I have been downloading free models in the most relevant file formats:

  - Max (*)
  - Maya (*)

  - Blender

  - Cinema 4D (*)

  - Rhino

  - SolidWorks

and, of course:

  - OBJ

  - FBX

I have become good at predicting the actual results in my computer, based on the look of the sample images in sites like the main one:

     Free Models at CGTrader 

For models done with 3ds Max and Maya, as soon as I see them nice and shiny I immediately conclude: "I bet the author used V-Ray or Corona".  That kind of look is not possible with the Autodesk applications out of the box.

I could upload many examples but this one should illustrate. The original was done in SolidWorks.

As found in the page at CGTrader:

As seen simply by double clicking in the SLDASM (or SLDPRT) file:

As seen after import into 3ds Max:

[To Be Continued]

-Ramon

(*) Done with and without 3rd. party renderers.

[Anonymous]

For months, I have been downloading free models in the most relevant file formats:

  - Max (*)
  - Maya (*)

  - Blender

  - Cinema 4D (*)

  - Rhino

  - SolidWorks

and, of course:

  - OBJ

  - FBX

I have become good at predicting the actual results in my computer, based on the look of the sample images in sites like the main one:

     Free Models at CGTrader 

For models done with 3ds Max and Maya, as soon as I see them nice and shiny I immediately conclude: "I bet the author used V-Ray or Corona".  That kind of look is not possible with the Autodesk applications out of the box.

I could upload many examples but this one should illustrate. The original was done in SolidWorks.

As found in the page at CGTrader:

As seen simply by double clicking in the SLDASM (or SLDPRT) file:

As seen after import into 3ds Max:

[To Be Continued]

-Ramon

(*) Done with and without 3rd. party renderers.

[Anonymous]

Oh, and don't get me started on the tires. This is the best possible look achievable with 3ds Max sans renderers:

-RFH

[Anonymous]

Oh, and don't get me started on the tires. This is the best possible look achievable with 3ds Max sans renderers:

-RFH

[Anonymous · Accepted solution]

---

@Anonymous wrote:

For months, I have been downloading free models in the most relevant file formats:

  - Max (*)
  - Maya (*)

  - Blender

  - Cinema 4D (*)

  - Rhino

  - SolidWorks

and, of course:

  - OBJ

  - FBX

I have become good at predicting the actual results in my computer, based on the look of the sample images in sites like the main one:

     Free Models at CGTrader 

For models done with 3ds Max and Maya, as soon as I see them nice and shiny I immediately conclude: "I bet the author used V-Ray or Corona".  That kind of look is not possible with the Autodesk applications out of the box.

I could upload many examples but this one should illustrate. The original was done in SolidWorks.

As found in the page at CGTrader:

As seen simply by double clicking in the SLDASM (or SLDPRT) file:

As seen after import into 3ds Max:

[To Be Continued]

-Ramon

(*) Done with and without 3rd. party renderers.

---

But @Anonymous , the reason is simply the assigned material/shader applied by the importer or the author of the file. This has nothing to to wit the Renderer. Everyone shipping with 3dsmax can achieve this looks.

If you download a model in .max format with a nice VRAY shader, of course it will render perfectly in Vray. If the fbx-importer add`s a simple standard material on default, of course it will look crappy.

Use Physical-Material and their presets, and you can use it with all Renderers shipping with 3dsmax.

Take a look at the examples on this page what you can achieve:

http://help.autodesk.com/view/3DSMAX/2020/ENU/?guid=GUID-C1328905-7783-4917-AB86-FC3CC19E8972

[Anonymous · Accepted solution]

---

@Anonymous wrote:

For months, I have been downloading free models in the most relevant file formats:

  - Max (*)
  - Maya (*)

  - Blender

  - Cinema 4D (*)

  - Rhino

  - SolidWorks

and, of course:

  - OBJ

  - FBX

I have become good at predicting the actual results in my computer, based on the look of the sample images in sites like the main one:

     Free Models at CGTrader 

For models done with 3ds Max and Maya, as soon as I see them nice and shiny I immediately conclude: "I bet the author used V-Ray or Corona".  That kind of look is not possible with the Autodesk applications out of the box.

I could upload many examples but this one should illustrate. The original was done in SolidWorks.

As found in the page at CGTrader:

As seen simply by double clicking in the SLDASM (or SLDPRT) file:

As seen after import into 3ds Max:

[To Be Continued]

-Ramon

(*) Done with and without 3rd. party renderers.

---

But @Anonymous , the reason is simply the assigned material/shader applied by the importer or the author of the file. This has nothing to to wit the Renderer. Everyone shipping with 3dsmax can achieve this looks.

If you download a model in .max format with a nice VRAY shader, of course it will render perfectly in Vray. If the fbx-importer add`s a simple standard material on default, of course it will look crappy.

Use Physical-Material and their presets, and you can use it with all Renderers shipping with 3dsmax.

Take a look at the examples on this page what you can achieve:

http://help.autodesk.com/view/3DSMAX/2020/ENU/?guid=GUID-C1328905-7783-4917-AB86-FC3CC19E8972

[Anonymous]

---

@Anonymous wrote:

For months, I have been downloading free models in the most relevant file formats:

  - Max (*)
  - Maya (*)

  - Blender

  - Cinema 4D (*)

  - Rhino

  - SolidWorks

and, of course:

  - OBJ

  - FBX

I have become good at predicting the actual results in my computer, based on the look of the sample images in sites like the main one:

     Free Models at CGTrader 

For models done with 3ds Max and Maya, as soon as I see them nice and shiny I immediately conclude: "I bet the author used V-Ray or Corona".  That kind of look is not possible with the Autodesk applications out of the box.

---

One of the points I would like to underscore is common, actual practice. How shiny/ready are the typical models posted in websites?  The following apps provide ready to use shininess:

  - Rhino

  - Cinema 4D

In fact, the other day I installed Rhino in the PC of a coworker, a tool that she learned in architecture school and missed since. I went to the CGTrade site and requested "Free Rhino Models". Lo and behold, a large percentage were rings: graduation, very ornate for ladies, watches. It was shininess all over the place. See the first 16 models offered by the web page: 11 are shiny, 10 are rings:

I have noticed the same -to a lesser extent- in Cinema 4D models. For 3ds Max and Maya (both out of the box) I do not recall many which displays that degree of being ready for production.

Notice that in this thread I am not referring to "old, used look", with PBR and its textures. For those models 3ds Max, well, shines.

-Ramon

[Anonymous]

---

@Anonymous wrote:

For months, I have been downloading free models in the most relevant file formats:

  - Max (*)
  - Maya (*)

  - Blender

  - Cinema 4D (*)

  - Rhino

  - SolidWorks

and, of course:

  - OBJ

  - FBX

I have become good at predicting the actual results in my computer, based on the look of the sample images in sites like the main one:

     Free Models at CGTrader 

For models done with 3ds Max and Maya, as soon as I see them nice and shiny I immediately conclude: "I bet the author used V-Ray or Corona".  That kind of look is not possible with the Autodesk applications out of the box.

---

One of the points I would like to underscore is common, actual practice. How shiny/ready are the typical models posted in websites?  The following apps provide ready to use shininess:

  - Rhino

  - Cinema 4D

In fact, the other day I installed Rhino in the PC of a coworker, a tool that she learned in architecture school and missed since. I went to the CGTrade site and requested "Free Rhino Models". Lo and behold, a large percentage were rings: graduation, very ornate for ladies, watches. It was shininess all over the place. See the first 16 models offered by the web page: 11 are shiny, 10 are rings:

I have noticed the same -to a lesser extent- in Cinema 4D models. For 3ds Max and Maya (both out of the box) I do not recall many which displays that degree of being ready for production.

Notice that in this thread I am not referring to "old, used look", with PBR and its textures. For those models 3ds Max, well, shines.

-Ramon

[Anonymous]

---

@Anonymous wrote:

---

---

But @Anonymous , the reason is simply the assigned material/shader applied by the importer or the author of the file. This has nothing to to wit the Renderer. Everyone shipping with 3dsmax can achieve this looks.

Please notice something important in my current workflow (i.e. learning approach/technique).

I download models in formats other than Max, leave them untouched. Next, I import them into Max. My favorite file formats are Maya ("Send to 3ds Max") and the import from SolidWorks, which has become much better since 2019. Then I post them here as examples of not quite being ready for production. My value added is just the conversion to *.max.

See my latest case below. A Black&Decker Drill.

 - As seen with a simple double click on the file "Drill Assembly.sldasm":

 - As seen when imported into 3ds Max.  Again: NO value added. That would be cheating for the purposes of this thread. This is one of the main points that I am trying to make: how good are the import/export function written by my software engineering colleagues.

Notice that the handle changed from black to orange during the import.

In some cases, no colors make it to 3ds Max -just greys- despite the fact that they are present in the original SolidWorks.

-Ramon

[Anonymous]

---

@Anonymous wrote:

---

---

But @Anonymous , the reason is simply the assigned material/shader applied by the importer or the author of the file. This has nothing to to wit the Renderer. Everyone shipping with 3dsmax can achieve this looks.

Please notice something important in my current workflow (i.e. learning approach/technique).

I download models in formats other than Max, leave them untouched. Next, I import them into Max. My favorite file formats are Maya ("Send to 3ds Max") and the import from SolidWorks, which has become much better since 2019. Then I post them here as examples of not quite being ready for production. My value added is just the conversion to *.max.

See my latest case below. A Black&Decker Drill.

 - As seen with a simple double click on the file "Drill Assembly.sldasm":

 - As seen when imported into 3ds Max.  Again: NO value added. That would be cheating for the purposes of this thread. This is one of the main points that I am trying to make: how good are the import/export function written by my software engineering colleagues.

Notice that the handle changed from black to orange during the import.

In some cases, no colors make it to 3ds Max -just greys- despite the fact that they are present in the original SolidWorks.

-Ramon

[Anonymous]

I would like to present a more extreme example. Another Black & Decker Drill, from here:

Free at CGTrader: Black Decker Cordless Drill 

This is one of the sample screenshots at the website:

Not bad, but look how nice (and shiny) it looks after double clicking the *.sldasm file:

Next, let's import it into 3ds Max (no value added):

Logo detail:

This greyscale look begs the question. Notice the OP at the top. How come the red color of the Nismo Wheel was nicely imported but in this case all colors were ignored by the 3ds Max algorithms?

-Ramon
JFK Numbers

[Anonymous]

I would like to present a more extreme example. Another Black & Decker Drill, from here:

Free at CGTrader: Black Decker Cordless Drill 

This is one of the sample screenshots at the website:

Not bad, but look how nice (and shiny) it looks after double clicking the *.sldasm file:

Next, let's import it into 3ds Max (no value added):

Logo detail:

This greyscale look begs the question. Notice the OP at the top. How come the red color of the Nismo Wheel was nicely imported but in this case all colors were ignored by the 3ds Max algorithms?

-Ramon
JFK Numbers

[Anonymous]

Can you share the file?

[Anonymous]

Can you share the file?

[Anonymous]

---

@Anonymous wrote:

Can you share the file?

---

Of course!

I will post the links to all of them as soon as I am near my PCs

-Ramon

[Anonymous]

---

@Anonymous wrote:

Can you share the file?

---

Of course!

I will post the links to all of them as soon as I am near my PCs

-Ramon

[stanislaw.menschow]

Wait am I missing something? Why are you guys comparing viewport screengrabs with renders?

[stanislaw.menschow]

Wait am I missing something? Why are you guys comparing viewport screengrabs with renders?

[Anonymous]

---

@stanislaw.menschow wrote:

Wait am I missing something? Why are you guys comparing viewport screengrabs with renders?

---

Good point, Stanislaw. Please read the full thread. My conclusion is that Autodesk has no interest in providing shininess out of the box. They rather leave that business to the Chaos Groups of the world and other companies specialized in the rendering industry. Chaos owns V-Ray and acquired Corona not too long ago.

This discussion is part technical but also about marketing decisions.

-Ramon

[Anonymous]

---

@stanislaw.menschow wrote:

Wait am I missing something? Why are you guys comparing viewport screengrabs with renders?

---

Good point, Stanislaw. Please read the full thread. My conclusion is that Autodesk has no interest in providing shininess out of the box. They rather leave that business to the Chaos Groups of the world and other companies specialized in the rendering industry. Chaos owns V-Ray and acquired Corona not too long ago.

This discussion is part technical but also about marketing decisions.

-Ramon

[stanislaw.menschow · Accepted solution]

Maybe I'm just completely missing your point but what do you mean by shininess? And are you talking about the appearence in the viewport or in an actual render? Because 3ds max has Arnold out of the box as rendering solution.

[stanislaw.menschow · Accepted solution]

Maybe I'm just completely missing your point but what do you mean by shininess? And are you talking about the appearence in the viewport or in an actual render? Because 3ds max has Arnold out of the box as rendering solution.

[Anonymous]

---

@stanislaw.menschow wrote:

Maybe I'm just completely missing your point but what do you mean by shininess? And are you talking about the appearence in the viewport or in an actual render? Because 3ds max has Arnold out of the box as rendering solution.

---

I agree, but I am also interested in actual usage. Allow me to refer to the old days, when only the Mac had a mouse. PC folks said things like: "Oh, but if you install the drivers from such-and-such and buy a mouse [...]". Of course, there was a lot of incompatibility and headaches.

The point is that us software developers could not reliably assume that the PC had a mouse. It took years for the Microsoft folks to catch on and make the critters common usage.

It is a similar point. Could you please provide an example of something which is freely available, based on Arnold? I'd love to play with it. It seems that every time an author is creating something nice and shiny, they immediately jump to V-Ray (which I have but not always) or Corona (my evaluation expired).

I have had a hard time trying to get examples.

TIA,

-Ramon

[Anonymous]

---

@stanislaw.menschow wrote:

Maybe I'm just completely missing your point but what do you mean by shininess? And are you talking about the appearence in the viewport or in an actual render? Because 3ds max has Arnold out of the box as rendering solution.

---

I agree, but I am also interested in actual usage. Allow me to refer to the old days, when only the Mac had a mouse. PC folks said things like: "Oh, but if you install the drivers from such-and-such and buy a mouse [...]". Of course, there was a lot of incompatibility and headaches.

The point is that us software developers could not reliably assume that the PC had a mouse. It took years for the Microsoft folks to catch on and make the critters common usage.

It is a similar point. Could you please provide an example of something which is freely available, based on Arnold? I'd love to play with it. It seems that every time an author is creating something nice and shiny, they immediately jump to V-Ray (which I have but not always) or Corona (my evaluation expired).

I have had a hard time trying to get examples.

TIA,

-Ramon

[Anonymous · Accepted solution]

Well, i`m a bit confused here as well. So what exactly is your point here?

You import from Solidworks, or a scene file using Vray/Corona/whateverRenderer and you are unsatisfied with the fact that 3dsmax doesn`t properly (auto)convert these to 3dsmax native Materials? And you don't want to create these shaders/materials for your imported models on your own. Do i have this correct?

[Anonymous · Accepted solution]

Well, i`m a bit confused here as well. So what exactly is your point here?

You import from Solidworks, or a scene file using Vray/Corona/whateverRenderer and you are unsatisfied with the fact that 3dsmax doesn`t properly (auto)convert these to 3dsmax native Materials? And you don't want to create these shaders/materials for your imported models on your own. Do i have this correct?

[Anonymous]

---

@Anonymous wrote:

Well, i`m a bit confused here as well. So what exactly is your point here?

You import from Solidworks, or a scene file using Vray/Corona/whateverRenderer and you are unsatisfied with the fact that 3dsmax doesn`t properly (auto)convert these to 3dsmax native Materials? And you don't want to create these shaders/materials for your imported models on your own. Do i have this correct?

---

I am fully satisfied. No complaints at all. Since my project is Free Open Source I am heavily into converting among file formats. I don't want any potential contributor to feel unwelcome. After downloading and processing hundreds of models, I have been making discoveries. I thought this one was interesting.

My day job is software engineering and I see how every passing year the conversions get better.

Every time I think something is amiss, I first check here in these forums with the experts. Only after that stage, I might report it as a bug. Or perhaps, a feature request.

-Ramon

[Anonymous]

---

@Anonymous wrote:

Well, i`m a bit confused here as well. So what exactly is your point here?

You import from Solidworks, or a scene file using Vray/Corona/whateverRenderer and you are unsatisfied with the fact that 3dsmax doesn`t properly (auto)convert these to 3dsmax native Materials? And you don't want to create these shaders/materials for your imported models on your own. Do i have this correct?

---

I am fully satisfied. No complaints at all. Since my project is Free Open Source I am heavily into converting among file formats. I don't want any potential contributor to feel unwelcome. After downloading and processing hundreds of models, I have been making discoveries. I thought this one was interesting.

My day job is software engineering and I see how every passing year the conversions get better.

Every time I think something is amiss, I first check here in these forums with the experts. Only after that stage, I might report it as a bug. Or perhaps, a feature request.

-Ramon

[stanislaw.menschow]

I guess I don't understand what you're trying to compare exactly. 

You're talking about actual usage and keep showing screenshot from your viewport in 3ds max. 

And you compare the 3ds max viewport result with either renders from actual render engines or viewports in other software. 
An object can look grey in the viewport and still render as a red shiny carpaint with lots of details once you click on render? So maybe you just need to explain a bit more what your actual goal is and what exactly you mean when you say "shiny".

[stanislaw.menschow]

I guess I don't understand what you're trying to compare exactly. 

You're talking about actual usage and keep showing screenshot from your viewport in 3ds max. 

And you compare the 3ds max viewport result with either renders from actual render engines or viewports in other software. 
An object can look grey in the viewport and still render as a red shiny carpaint with lots of details once you click on render? So maybe you just need to explain a bit more what your actual goal is and what exactly you mean when you say "shiny".

[Anonymous]

---

@stanislaw.menschow wrote:

I guess I don't understand what you're trying to compare exactly. 

You're talking about actual usage and keep showing screenshot from your viewport in 3ds max. 

---

Actually, some of the screenshots are from renderings (native and 3rd party), found in CGTrader some are from my PC. The value added, what you see in my viewports is zero. I am not a renderer person yet.

The actual usage is an statistical sampling, the screenshots come from the number of shiny cases (the subject of this thread) that I find in CGTrader and elsewhere. I have spent over a year collecting cases and would like to present a report of my findings to the expert readership.

Shiny Usage, in order:

 - Rhino: Lots, out of the box

 - Cinema 4D : many, out of the box

 - SolidWorks: it seems that shininess is built in

 - 3ds Max and Maya: only with 3rd. party plugins. I was just told that Arnold is shiny capable. I will have to take people's word for it. Still trying to see an evidence.

I wish CGTrader had a sub-option for rendering engine.

-Ramon

[Anonymous]

---

@stanislaw.menschow wrote:

I guess I don't understand what you're trying to compare exactly. 

You're talking about actual usage and keep showing screenshot from your viewport in 3ds max. 

---

Actually, some of the screenshots are from renderings (native and 3rd party), found in CGTrader some are from my PC. The value added, what you see in my viewports is zero. I am not a renderer person yet.

The actual usage is an statistical sampling, the screenshots come from the number of shiny cases (the subject of this thread) that I find in CGTrader and elsewhere. I have spent over a year collecting cases and would like to present a report of my findings to the expert readership.

Shiny Usage, in order:

 - Rhino: Lots, out of the box

 - Cinema 4D : many, out of the box

 - SolidWorks: it seems that shininess is built in

 - 3ds Max and Maya: only with 3rd. party plugins. I was just told that Arnold is shiny capable. I will have to take people's word for it. Still trying to see an evidence.

I wish CGTrader had a sub-option for rendering engine.

-Ramon

[Anonymous]

---

@stanislaw.menschow wrote:

So maybe you just need to explain a bit more what your actual goal is and what exactly you mean when you say "shiny".

---

Number of 3ds Max models which are shiny and do not use a 3rd. party plug in: Zero.

Probably the same can be said of Maya.

I respectfully invite you folks to prove me wrong. There you go:

Free Models at CGTrader 

-Ramon

[Anonymous]

---

@stanislaw.menschow wrote:

So maybe you just need to explain a bit more what your actual goal is and what exactly you mean when you say "shiny".

---

Number of 3ds Max models which are shiny and do not use a 3rd. party plug in: Zero.

Probably the same can be said of Maya.

I respectfully invite you folks to prove me wrong. There you go:

Free Models at CGTrader 

-Ramon

[madsd]

You need to learn to use the scene converter and create your own scripts to convert these abitrary meshes and more specifically the closures and shaders to something you can use.

It is not guaranteede that whatever these people produce will work, spot on to perfection, as you have realized yourself.

So you need to start working on calibrating these things so they play nice for what you want.

If your goal is to ignore that and just find it nice to spend your time showing abitrary data sets that does not load like you think it should, then super, but couldnt time be better spend? I mean, you will get nothing concrete out of it, everyone knows it already.

[madsd]

You need to learn to use the scene converter and create your own scripts to convert these abitrary meshes and more specifically the closures and shaders to something you can use.

It is not guaranteede that whatever these people produce will work, spot on to perfection, as you have realized yourself.

So you need to start working on calibrating these things so they play nice for what you want.

If your goal is to ignore that and just find it nice to spend your time showing abitrary data sets that does not load like you think it should, then super, but couldnt time be better spend? I mean, you will get nothing concrete out of it, everyone knows it already.

[stanislaw.menschow · Accepted solution]

Every render engine is "shiny capable", even the most basic Scanline Renderer in 3ds max. It almost doesn't get more basic than that in terms of features. I'm still unsure if you are talking about the viewport or an actual render.

I also still don't understand what your statistic is supposed to showcase, because any model you download can be "shiny" with any native render engine in any application. But yeah, you would have to actually hit render to find out and not just look at the 3ds max viewport in standard mode.

For example: https://www.cgtrader.com/free-3d-models/car/racing/low-poly-sports-car-20
It's 3dsmax, scanline and free. It's "shiny" like millions of other models. So I'm really confused.

[stanislaw.menschow · Accepted solution]

Every render engine is "shiny capable", even the most basic Scanline Renderer in 3ds max. It almost doesn't get more basic than that in terms of features. I'm still unsure if you are talking about the viewport or an actual render.

I also still don't understand what your statistic is supposed to showcase, because any model you download can be "shiny" with any native render engine in any application. But yeah, you would have to actually hit render to find out and not just look at the 3ds max viewport in standard mode.

For example: https://www.cgtrader.com/free-3d-models/car/racing/low-poly-sports-car-20
It's 3dsmax, scanline and free. It's "shiny" like millions of other models. So I'm really confused.

[Anonymous]

---

@madsd wrote:

You need to learn to use the scene converter and create your own scripts to convert these abitrary meshes and more specifically the closures and shaders to something you can use.

It is not guaranteede that whatever these people produce will work, spot on to perfection, as you have realized yourself.

So you need to start working on calibrating these things so they play nice for what you want.

If your goal is to ignore that and just find it nice to spend your time showing abitrary data sets that does not load like you think it should, then super, but couldn't time be better spend? I mean, you will get nothing concrete out of it, everyone knows it already.

---

Thanks for the advice. Yes, there are lots of things that I need to learn, given the fact that my day job is software engineering. In college I did take one course named "Computer Graphics", it was at graduate level. All I can say is this: "I wish I had taken more!" The final project was "Display any object of your preference in 3D." Instead of a fixed object I created my little file format so the user could define his/her own models. Computers were awfully slow those days. Surface elimination took a while.

I am trying (struggling is a better term) to learn about 8 applications concurrently. I have those apps but decided to give up on some (ZBrush, yuck!). The ones at the top of my focus are 3ds Max and SolidWorks.

Oh, something else: I hire Freelancers for my projects. Some took advantage of my lack of experience. Now I will fulfill the maxim: "The best consumer is an educated consumer".

Cheers,

-Ramon

[Anonymous]

---

@madsd wrote:

You need to learn to use the scene converter and create your own scripts to convert these abitrary meshes and more specifically the closures and shaders to something you can use.

It is not guaranteede that whatever these people produce will work, spot on to perfection, as you have realized yourself.

So you need to start working on calibrating these things so they play nice for what you want.

If your goal is to ignore that and just find it nice to spend your time showing abitrary data sets that does not load like you think it should, then super, but couldn't time be better spend? I mean, you will get nothing concrete out of it, everyone knows it already.

---

Thanks for the advice. Yes, there are lots of things that I need to learn, given the fact that my day job is software engineering. In college I did take one course named "Computer Graphics", it was at graduate level. All I can say is this: "I wish I had taken more!" The final project was "Display any object of your preference in 3D." Instead of a fixed object I created my little file format so the user could define his/her own models. Computers were awfully slow those days. Surface elimination took a while.

I am trying (struggling is a better term) to learn about 8 applications concurrently. I have those apps but decided to give up on some (ZBrush, yuck!). The ones at the top of my focus are 3ds Max and SolidWorks.

Oh, something else: I hire Freelancers for my projects. Some took advantage of my lack of experience. Now I will fulfill the maxim: "The best consumer is an educated consumer".

Cheers,

-Ramon