Hair and Fur bugs

[RGhost77]

Hello every one!

I create this post for collect and confirm bugs in Hair and Fur modifier.

Recently I moved from Max 2012 to max 2018/19. In 2012 I used H&F mostly without problems and achieve good results. But in 2018/19 it seems a lot of H&F is broken :-(. So without fixed this bugs it's hardly allows to make good hair.

Of course I submitting this bugs as defect (see numbers of this bugs) but also I'm understand that it can be fixed in Max 2030 or never.

So if you interested in working Hair and Fur modifier please post founded bugs in H&F and confirm already posted. I hope it will push forward fixing H&F.

So here first bunch of bugs:

BSPR-31056 Hair and Fur has wrong hair length in viewport.

BSPR-31057 Hair and Fur has wrong hair length in render when Cut Length between 1.0-7.0.

BSPR-31058 Save/Load preset in Hair and Fur doesn't works properly.

[RGhost77]

Another one...

BSPR-31151 Clumps of hair not properly assembled on tip when using Multi Strand parameters.

[RGhost77]

Here my temporary solution for the bug which is mentioned before: "BSPR-31057 Hair and Fur has wrong hair length in render when Cut Length between 1.0-7.0." .

It not fix all problems but is better than nothing 😕

[RGhost77]

BSPR-31304 Hairs after Recomb From Splines/Spline Deform has wrong length.

ok, another broken feature...

all that is very sad...

[RGhost77]

Another one...

BSPR-31677 Hair and Fur not properly works with Geometry mode and Scale less then 100.

[hagen.deloss]

Hi @RGhost77

Great to hear from you on the forums! And thanks for documenting these issues so thoroughly 😄

I looked into the BSPR's you listed and they are indeed in our system! Development is aware of these issues within the hair & fur tool. 

I'm curious, have you tried using the ActiveShade Mode while changing your hair and fur settings? It would get you a faster rendering sample of the length and clumping. 

Please select the Accept as Solution button if a post solves your issue or answers your question.

[RGhost77]

@hagen.delossOh, this is little consolation that the bug logged. I'm no hope that this bugs will be fixed during 1-2 years.

What about Active Shade & Arnold I'm trying to avoid this mode, if it possible, because it's very unstable (Max can close unexpectedly and I lose all tweaks) and in my case very slow. But it develops towards stability from release to release, that good thing.

By the way, if Active Shade will be have multi region feature like Deadline's jigsaw it will be allow render images much faster.

[hagen.deloss]

@RGhost77

With the multiple deadlines and product improvements, developments' schedule is always changing, and I don't have access to most of their release milestones 😞

I really do appreciate the time it took to record these videos, they are super helpful in documenting the way the hair & fur tool operates! I will be sure to pass all your suggestions along.

[markus]

Hair and fur also "crashes" if you are styling hair and autosave kicks in, meaning  the hair and fur just dissappear after this.

[RGhost77]

H&F MAXScript bug

1. Create any object and add Hair and Fur modifier.
2. Try : $.modifiers[#Hair_and_fur].MR_Shader = ai_standard_hair()
Result:

-- Known system exception
-- ########################################################################
-- Address: 0xa0a795b6; nCode: 0x00000000C0000005
-- Desc: EXCEPTION_ACCESS_VIOLATION The thread tried to read from or write to a virtual address for which it does not have the appropriate access.
--       Read of Address: 0x0000000000000000
-- ########################################################################
-- MAXScript callstack:
--	thread data: threadID:10548
--	------------------------------------------------------
--	[stack level: 0]
--	In top-level
-- ########################################################################
-- C++ callstack:
-- (arnoldshadersloader): (filename not available): LibNumberClasses
-- (hair): (filename not available): CanAutoDefer
-- (MAXScrpt): (filename not available): MAXClass::set_creatable
-- (MAXScrpt): (filename not available): MAXWrapper::set_property
-- (MAXScrpt): (filename not available): MAXWrapper::set_property
-- (MAXScrpt): (filename not available): MAXModifierArray::map
-- (MAXScrpt): (filename not available): ThunkReference::ThunkReference
-- (MAXScrpt): (filename not available): SetPrintAllElements
-- (MAXScrpt): (filename not available): Primitive::apply
-- (MAXScrpt): (filename not available): CodeTree::eval
-- (MAXScrpt): (filename not available): Listener::set_style
-- (USER32): (filename not available): UserCallDlgProcCheckWow
-- (USER32): (filename not available): DefDlgProcWorker
-- (USER32): (filename not available): DefDlgProcW
-- (USER32): (filename not available): UserCallWinProcCheckWow
-- (USER32): (filename not available): CallWindowProcAorW
-- (USER32): (filename not available): CallWindowProcW
-- (UIControls): (filename not available): InitializeCustomUI
-- (UIControls): (filename not available): (function-name not available)
-- (USER32): (filename not available): UserCallWinProcCheckWow
-- (USER32): (filename not available): DispatchMessageWorker
-- (USER32): (filename not available): IsDialogMessageW
-- (3dsmax): (filename not available): XMLAnimTreeEntry::GetUnique
-- ########################################################################

also it happens with other materials: https://forums.cgsociety.org/t/hair-and-fur-custom-shader-setting-scripting-help/2046950

BSPR-32065 Can't assign custom shader in Hair and Fur modifier via maxscript.

[pokoy]

OMG, I needed hair&fur every now and then from 2012-2016, and wanted to switch to 2019 in the next weeks. Looks like it's not a good idea.

@hagen.deloss - you definitely need to escalate this internally. Many users and teams out there haven't switched yet (you'd be surprised how many pipelines are still on 2014 or 2016) but once they do it will definitely be a no. 1 issue for many teams.

[hagen.deloss]

Hello @RGhost77

I appreciate you posting back in this thread, I have been thinking about the hair & fur workflow a lot lately, especially in relation to Arnold rendering. I think the ability to control hair and fur via Maxscript would be best proposed in the Ideas channel, or you can try posting in the programming forum to see if anyone has any ideas there. 

@pokoy I completely agree, I will try to signal boost the hair and fur BSPR's that @RGhost77 has documented here. I think it's a combination of things. From what I understand, the workflow is trending more toward using Arnold for these types of systems, but documentation of these processes is rather light currently. I don't have a solution for this at the moment, but am working on it! If you have any insights or recommendations, I would love to chat further!

[RGhost77]

@hagen.delossI don't see problem coding for H&F except some bugs. But you right, I should  post Idea about Maxscript support for MAXtoA.

BTW, if some one had problem with H&F & Arnold workflow check my article "Arnold with Hair and Fur modifier"

[RGhost77]

  .Clumps (Number_of_Clumps_Param) : integer
  .ClumpsStren (Clumps_Strength_Param) : float
  .ClumpsScruff (Clumps_Scruffle_Param) : float
  .ClumpsRot (Clumps_Rotation_Param) : float
  .ClumpsOffset (Clumps_Offset_Param) : float
  .ClumpsColors (Clumps_Colors_Param) : float
  .ClumpsRand (Clumps_Randomization_Param) : float
  .ClumpsFlat (Clump_Flatness_Param) : float

  .FlyawayPerc (Flyaway_Percent_Param) : integer
  .FlyawayStren (Flyaway_Strength_Param) : float
  .MessStren (Flyaway_Mess_Strength_Param) : float

Just for curious I looked in Maxscript help and found that some H&F features recently added not documented ...
I don't know how properly submit "bugs" in documentation so I post undocumented H&F properties here.

[hagen.deloss]

@RGhost77

I really appreciate you submitting a BSPR for the maxscript H&F issue, someone in QA is looking into it! I will let you know where that ends up. In the meantime, if you suggest this in the Ideas page, please post a link back onto this thread so folks following this thread can vote for it!!

Talk to you soon 😄

[Anonymous]

The interpolation is really really really bad in hair and fur... look at this  the image.. and compare it to Xgen, in Xgen the hairs follow perfectly the guides, they never go out of of the guide .. plus hair and fur lack uniform distribution like in Xgen and all the other hair program I know.. hairfam, OX, etc. ( it only has random... wich is good for grass... not for hairs and fur.. )         Please integrate Xgen instead of wasting time trying to fix this old tech hair and fur , it's not worth it, it's old tech.. was good 15 years ago. 

[hagen.deloss]

Hi @Anonymous

Thanks for posting in this thread! 

All the information I have on the hair and fur system inside 3DS Max is outlined above, is there a specific issue I can help you figure out with the system, or is it general performance that you find wanting?

In the meantime, here is a list of 3rd party hair systems for 3DS Max that may help your workflow.

• Ornatrix
• Hair Farm
• advanced painter script
• Here are some more scripts from this thread on polycount
• http://www.scriptspot.com/3ds-max/scripts/line-per-vertex
  http://www.scriptspot.com/3ds-max/scripts/pin-tool
  http://www.scriptspot.com/3ds-max/scripts/move-to-surface
  http://www.scriptspot.com/3ds-max/scripts/clavertech-aligntosurface

I hope this helps!

[Anonymous]

Agree with Bigguns,

Hair and Fur was good 15years ago, but now there's a lot of difference from other top Grooming software.

Have a problem on Interpolation.

Have a big problem on Subdivion of guide spline, more than 30 is useless, have no different result and with a long hair is a big problem, you see some angle curve on hair.

Have no bezier control on with of Hair start and end, only a map control (is old way)

Have no random Leght, only random scale, that cause a lot of strage artifact because it scale not following the spline but the center pivot.

Have no the possibility to paint the gude on surface like X-Gen.

And have all the bug listened above.

So pls fixit or porting X-Gen on MAX

Thanks

[Anonymous]

Hmm but did you understand what i said about hair and fur ? What about upgrading the very bad interpolation and making it like in xgen ? What about uniform distribution ? What about lenght randomness ?  Or what about just integrating xgen into max ? What are your plan for it ?? Upgrading hair and fur and at least correcting the main issue that i stated or instead integrating xgen ? Or nothing.... ?? Whats your plan i would like to hear ... 

And even ox and hairfarm and very inferior to xgen .. Ox interpolation is bad.. They are working on it to make it like xgen.. But will they succed i dont know. Hairfrm is old and is not upgraded for years.. And the extrusion of poly is very geometry dependant making it unflexible and very long to extrude all these strands ... I use both daily i can tell ....  Xgen in max would be great !!! Can you say if its possible to integrate it for the next version of max2020 ?

Thank you

[Anonymous]

ok you probably misunderstood me.

I agree with you, I only have listed the parts that I think do not work in Hair & Fur (like title of post suggest).
Obviusly I would like to have X-Gen in MAX, but I'm not the one that can decide

Regards

Andrea Bertaccini-Tredistudio