topic Re: Visual Studio built into AutoCAD?? Preferred Language?? in VBA Forum

Visual Studio built into AutoCAD?? Preferred Language??

sbrusco — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:46:52 GMT

Hi Everybody,

I read an article waaaay back in Nov2006 in WorldCAD Access that says

"...Visual Studio Tools for Applications (VSTA), which updates the old VBA (Visual Basic for Applications) for the .NET Framework and the upcoming Visual Studio 2005. Set for release in the third quarter of 2006, VSTA is intended for ISVs such as Autodesk and Dassault Systems seeking to make their products extensible for Visual Studio developers."

What does this mean? Is VS built into AutoCAD? I can find only VBA with VBAMAN and VBAIDE. Is it a compatibility issue?

Now for all you Visual Studio developers out there, is there a preferred language in VS for developing applications for AutoCAD? Why or why not? I know you can work with any of the many VB, C++, C#, J#..., but is there one that is preferred?

Thanks,

Sal

Re: Visual Studio built into AutoCAD?? Preferred Language??

Anonymous — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:22:55 GMT

i wouldn't hold my breathe for vsta to added to autocad anytime soon. there
are no plans to my knowledge that it will be available in at the least the
next release or the one after that. so we are talking at least 2 maybe 3
years if ever.

VB and C# seem to be the preferred .net languages. although if you want the
most control possible that would be plain C++ using ObjectARX.

wrote in message news:5802649@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Everybody,

I read an article waaaay back in Nov2006 in WorldCAD Access that says

"...Visual Studio Tools for Applications (VSTA), which updates the old VBA
(Visual Basic for Applications) for the .NET Framework and the upcoming
Visual Studio 2005. Set for release in the third quarter of 2006, VSTA is
intended for ISVs such as Autodesk and Dassault Systems seeking to make
their products extensible for Visual Studio developers."

What does this mean? Is VS built into AutoCAD? I can find only VBA with
VBAMAN and VBAIDE. Is it a compatibility issue?

Now for all you Visual Studio developers out there, is there a preferred
language in VS for developing applications for AutoCAD? Why or why not? I
know you can work with any of the many VB, C++, C#, J#..., but is there one
that is preferred?

Thanks,

Sal

Re: Visual Studio built into AutoCAD?? Preferred Language??

sbrusco — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:37:12 GMT

Hi Steve,

Thank you very much for your input. It is also my opinion that VB and C# are the preferred languages but my experience is with VB only. So i have one question, doesn't VB address ObjectARX as well? Why the weight toward C++?

Sal

Re: Visual Studio built into AutoCAD?? Preferred Language??

Anonymous — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:47:45 GMT

that's VB.NET and that's only through managed wrappers or simply using the
activex components which don't access the objectarx.

C++ is what autocad is actually written in and that is what the exposed
objectarx is natively.

wrote in message news:5802819@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Steve,

Thank you very much for your input. It is also my opinion that VB and C# are
the preferred languages but my experience is with VB only. So i have one
question, doesn't VB address ObjectARX as well? Why the weight toward C++?

Sal

Re: Visual Studio built into AutoCAD?? Preferred Language??

sbrusco — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:04:20 GMT

Yes, VB.NET is what i meant so thanks for the clarification.

So it would seem C++ is the winner, at least for the reasons you state. Thanks for your input. I will wait to see if there are other opinions lurking in the ng (as if i don't already know the answer to that.)

Sal

Re: Visual Studio built into AutoCAD?? Preferred Language??

Anonymous — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:10:08 GMT

while C++ affords the most power, it also comes with the steepest learning
curve. it is not for the faint of heart.

wrote in message news:5802844@discussion.autodesk.com...
Yes, VB.NET is what i meant so thanks for the clarification.

So it would seem C++ is the winner, at least for the reasons you state.
Thanks for your input. I will wait to see if there are other opinions
lurking in the ng (as if i don't already know the answer to that.)

Sal

Re: Visual Studio built into AutoCAD?? Preferred Language??

Anonymous — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 22:55:24 GMT

wrote

>> So i have one question, doesn't VB address ObjectARX as well? Why the weight toward C++? <<

Have you ever considered that there is a reason why you would have to look very hard to find a major commercial software application that's written in VB ?

The 'weight toward C++' is because it is a professional development tool that is designed for use by professional programmers, and because ObjectARX was originally designed to be a professional-grade API for use by professional programmers, and an API that leverages of many aspects of C++, which VB does not offer, namely object oriented programming.

.NET langauges are true OOP langauges which VBA and VB6 are not. Hence, it was fairly straightfoward and relatively easy to create .NET wrappers for native ObjectARX objects that could work similar to their native counterparts. That made it possible for ObjectARX to become accessible to those who are not professional programmers, but despite that, it is still not as easy to use as VBA, and requires some training to work with.

VBA and VB6 are programming systems that were initially targeted at scripting Microsoft Office applications, targeting an audience consisting mostly of people who are not professional programmers, like domain experts that need to develop domain-specific solutions for internal use by themself and/or their organizations.

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Supporting AutoCAD 2000 through 2008
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Re: Visual Studio built into AutoCAD?? Preferred Language??

sbrusco — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 11:33:11 GMT

I get it, "professional" seems to be the underlying theme in your response. I can't disagree with what you say, and because i recognize your name, i wouldn't disagree anyway. But why does AutoCAD make it so easy to customize with VL and VBA by building in their IDEs? I learned earlier in this thread that AutoCAD itself is written in C++ so why not just go there. Is C++ that much more complex to learn than VL or VB?

Thanks for helping me to understand.

Sal

Re: Visual Studio built into AutoCAD?? Preferred Language??

Anonymous — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:32:14 GMT

Yes, there are plenty of complexities to C++ as I stated before. I think
that "professional" is a bit misleading as there are tons of professional
programmers who are writing applications using Visual Basic as the language.
Albeit they are not writing applications as complex and involved as AutoCAD.
C++ affords more of what an object oriented language is than VB and it
allows greater control of low-level functionality, i.e. "bit-twiddling" if
you will. With this greater control comes more risks and a steeper learning
curve. VB offers much less control but far greater ease with things like
your user interface. Which one you choose depends in large part on what you
intend to do. If you want to create custom objects inside of AutoCAD then
C++ is the answer. If you want a quick macro to change a 100 drawings and
you probably would never use it again then VBA is by far the best choice
(unless you are good with LISP which may be the better choice for your
particular situation).

wrote in message news:5803664@discussion.autodesk.com...
I get it, "professional" seems to be the underlying theme in your response.
I can't disagree with what you say, and because i recognize your name, i
wouldn't disagree anyway. But why does AutoCAD make it so easy to customize
with VL and VBA by building in their IDEs? I learned earlier in this thread
that AutoCAD itself is written in C++ so why not just go there. Is C++ that
much more complex to learn than VL or VB?

Thanks for helping me to understand.

Sal

Re: Visual Studio built into AutoCAD?? Preferred Language??

sbrusco — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:44:09 GMT

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the further explaination. It is now clear to me that the selection of a programming language is dependent upon what you intend to do with the program. I guess, if i looked deep enough, i already knew this but there is some commotion going on at my company and i'm just trying to get some outside expert advice. Of course, this forum is the first place i looked.

Thanks again to you and Tony.

Sal

Re: Visual Studio built into AutoCAD?? Preferred Language??

Anonymous — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 23:09:02 GMT

>> Thanks for the further explaination. It is now clear to me that the selection of a programming language is dependent upon what you intend to do with the program.<<

Yes, but the problem is that usually, what you may intend to do with the program at the outset, is not what you end up doing with it at the end of the day, and without the 'professional' experience, you are not able to easily foresee all of the requirements, constraints, and problems you'll encounter in the course of developing an application, which often includes problems which VB and the APIs available to it, provide no reasonable solutions for.

For example, sending strings to the command line to do things like drag an entity, is a trademark 'unprofessional' approach or 'kludge/hack'. Those who find it appropriate or acceptable to solve problems that way, usually fail to consider how many things can go wrong with it, and how that kind of 'hacking' leads to failure.

That 'hacker' mentality that's prevalent in most VB programming is one where the program only needs to work when the user does *exactly* what the hacker wants or expects them to do. IOW, the user must conform to the limitations of the program (or more precisely, the hacker), rather than the program anticipating and compensating for whatever the user can or may do, or how they choose to do it. To me, that's an example of the cart pulling the horse.

That's where the 'professional' part comes in. When I use the word 'professional', what I mean are people who follow and adhere to established and commonly accepted principles, practices and standards of professional software engineering, as they are formally defined.

A programmer who is trained those principles and practices, designs software before they try to write the code, rather than designs the software as they write the code (the definition of 'hacking'), as many VB programmers tend to do.

A professional programmer lives by Murphy's Law. A major aspect of the design process (the part many VB programmers just skip) is to consider every possible thing that can go wrong, and every possible action a user can take that may cause their program to fail. IOW, they do up-front analysis to identify requirements and limitations; write a specification, etc., before even writing a single line of code. And based on all of that design work, they discover before hand, what most non-professional programmers don't discover until after they've finished producing what wishful thinking has lead them to believe is a working application, but in reality is nothing of the sort.

The problem is that in many cases where attempts to write software end up becoming a complete failure that is ultimately abandoned, the cost is not coming out of the pocket of the 'programmer', it is coming out of the pocket of their employer. In small businesses with no full time IT professionals on staff to oversee things, the extent of the damage that a 'programmer' can do can be massive, not only in terms of wasted development cost, but also in terms of massive amounts of corrupted or useless data.

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Supporting AutoCAD 2000 through 2008
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Re: Visual Studio built into AutoCAD?? Preferred Language??

Anonymous — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 23:48:19 GMT

I think this (first reply from Tony T) may be the best answer/explanation I have ever heard on this topic. I will copy/paste this for future reference!

Re: Visual Studio built into AutoCAD?? Preferred Language??

sbrusco — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 11:51:55 GMT

Hi Tony,

Thanks for this absolutely wonderful explanation of your opinion. There is no doubt in my mind where you stand but i do have one question. Are you saying that if someone who is a professional is going to write a program for use with AutoCAD, that they would/should choose C++ as the vehicle to, as they say, "git 'er done" and that choosing any other programming language would demote an otherwise successful programmer to the ranks of "hacker"?

Depending on your answer, there could be times when VB.NET is appropriate based on the desired goal as mentioned above, OR the only choice ever is C++. Does it really boil down to the perception of the programmer as professional or hacker?

I know several programmers who make a living writing code in VB and i've seen what i perceive to be profession results. Now before you say it, i realize this could be the flatland syndrome where i can't recognize the limitations because of my point of reference. On the other hand, if it accomplishes the task, isn't that the goal?

Anyway, that's my opinion. And does the horse pull or push the cart? From the horse's perspective, he is 'pushing' on the strap in front of his chest. But if the cart had a perspective, it is being 'pulled'. When the horse backs up, he now believes he is 'pulling' the cart but the cart can't fight the notion that it is being 'pushed'.

Hey, i'm just having a little fun here. Like i said before, i respect your opinion/input and also that of others in this ng. If not, i wouldn't come here for help. And for the record, even though i don't completely understand the ramifications, i will take your advice and recommend C++ as the language of choice in our company. Even if that means i have to learn another programming language. Wish me luck and stick around, i'll be back with C++ questions.

Have a good day,

Sal

Re: Visual Studio built into AutoCAD?? Preferred Language??

Anonymous — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 14:44:57 GMT

actually, if you just have to go that far, unless you need custom objects, i
would suggest that perhaps you take the C#/VB.NET route. the idiosyncrasies
of C/C++ can be a daunting task and if it is not absolutely necessary, then
why bother.

don't get me wrong, i'm not against C++ but if someone has little or no
programming experience and doesn't have a near future [i.e. 1-3 years] need
for C++, i wouldn't necessarily recommend they take that route. granted they
do take that route in academia, right or wrong, and to a large extinct that
has helped fuel C++'s success over the years. it use to be in the old days
that Pascal was the language and no matter how much you thought C++ was a
better choice, your professor would look at you and politely say, NO.

since planning is important and should give you a roadmap to wherever you
need to go, perhaps you should map out what your current and short future
needs are and could be and base your decision on those criteria. here are a
couple of questions you may want to consider:

1. will you be writing an application that requires more than 40 hours
to complete? this is my breakpoint for intermediate vs. advanced.
2. is this application for internal use or will you be selling it to the
general public?
3. are there others within your company that may need to support it and
what is their backgrounds?

just some points to consider.

wrote in message news:5804656@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Tony,

Thanks for this absolutely wonderful explanation of your opinion. There is
no doubt in my mind where you stand but i do have one question. Are you
saying that if someone who is a professional is going to write a program for
use with AutoCAD, that they would/should choose C++ as the vehicle to, as
they say, "git 'er done" and that choosing any other programming language
would demote an otherwise successful programmer to the ranks of "hacker"?

Depending on your answer, there could be times when VB.NET is appropriate
based on the desired goal as mentioned above, OR the only choice ever is
C++. Does it really boil down to the perception of the programmer as
professional or hacker?

I know several programmers who make a living writing code in VB and i've
seen what i perceive to be profession results. Now before you say it, i
realize this could be the flatland syndrome where i can't recognize the
limitations because of my point of reference. On the other hand, if it
accomplishes the task, isn't that the goal?

Anyway, that's my opinion. And does the horse pull or push the cart? From
the horse's perspective, he is 'pushing' on the strap in front of his chest.
But if the cart had a perspective, it is being 'pulled'. When the horse
backs up, he now believes he is 'pulling' the cart but the cart can't fight
the notion that it is being 'pushed'.

Hey, i'm just having a little fun here. Like i said before, i respect your
opinion/input and also that of others in this ng. If not, i wouldn't come
here for help. And for the record, even though i don't completely understand
the ramifications, i will take your advice and recommend C++ as the language
of choice in our company. Even if that means i have to learn another
programming language. Wish me luck and stick around, i'll be back with C++
questions.

Have a good day,

Sal

Re: Visual Studio built into AutoCAD?? Preferred Language??

Anonymous — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 19:14:48 GMT

>> Are you saying that if someone who is a professional is going to write a program for use with AutoCAD, that they would/should choose C++ as the vehicle to, as they say, "git 'er done" and that choosing any other programming language would demote an otherwise successful programmer to the ranks of "hacker"? <<

It depends largely on what thier needs are. In in any case, whether they're a 'professional' or not, if the API they use doesn't meet those needs, they will have no choice but to do some hacking. Now that doesn't make them hackers, but they may still need to do some hacking. Heck, we all have to 'hack' now and then, but for me it is a last resort, when there is no other way.

>> Depending on your answer, there could be times when VB.NET is appropriate based on the desired goal as mentioned above, OR the only choice ever is C++. Does it really boil down to the perception of the programmer as professional or hacker? <<

No, one can't say that for AutoCAD development, C++ is the only choice.

C++ is much more difficult to learn than VB.NET or C#. I spent two years learning to use it, before I ever allowed another human to see (never mind use) any software I wrote in that language. I would only recommend C++ if you are doing programming professionally, full time, for a living.

--
http://www.caddzone.com

AcadXTabs: MDI Document Tabs for AutoCAD 2008
Supporting AutoCAD 2000 through 2008
http://www.acadxtabs.com

Re: Visual Studio built into AutoCAD?? Preferred Language??

Anonymous — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:02:43 GMT

I am of the impression that Microsoft have already started on a replacement language for C++ though I don't know when they will do so

Re: Visual Studio built into AutoCAD?? Preferred Language??

Anonymous — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:38:58 GMT

yeah, it's called c sharp [C#]

wrote in message news:5805283@discussion.autodesk.com...
I am of the impression that Microsoft have already started on a replacement
language for C++ though I don't know when they will do so

Re: Visual Studio built into AutoCAD?? Preferred Language??

Anonymous — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 22:12:07 GMT

Sorry, but you're sorely mistaken if you believe
that C# is a 'replacement language' for C++.

--
http://www.caddzone.com

AcadXTabs: MDI Document Tabs for AutoCAD 2008
Supporting AutoCAD 2000 through 2008
http://www.acadxtabs.com

"Steve" wrote in message news:5805314@discussion.autodesk.com...
yeah, it's called c sharp [C#]

wrote in message news:5805283@discussion.autodesk.com...
I am of the impression that Microsoft have already started on a replacement
language for C++ though I don't know when they will do so

Re: Visual Studio built into AutoCAD?? Preferred Language??

Anonymous — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 22:15:39 GMT

There is no replacement langauge for C++.

C++ can be used to write both native, and managed
code, and Microsoft continues to move foward with MFC
for native C++ development.

--
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AcadXTabs: MDI Document Tabs for AutoCAD 2008
Supporting AutoCAD 2000 through 2008
http://www.acadxtabs.com

wrote in message news:5805283@discussion.autodesk.com...
I am of the impression that Microsoft have already started on a replacement language for C++ though I don't know when they will do so

Re: Visual Studio built into AutoCAD?? Preferred Language??

Anonymous — Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:39:33 GMT

perhaps "replacement language" is inaccurate. a more accurate statement
would be "replacement language" of choice for professional programmers. C++
will continue to live no doubt for some time yet, but much like VBA will be
phased out and replaced by applications written in C#.

"Tony Tanzillo" wrote in message
news:5805395@discussion.autodesk.com...
Sorry, but you're sorely mistaken if you believe
that C# is a 'replacement language' for C++.

--
http://www.caddzone.com

AcadXTabs: MDI Document Tabs for AutoCAD 2008
Supporting AutoCAD 2000 through 2008
http://www.acadxtabs.com

"Steve" wrote in message
news:5805314@discussion.autodesk.com...
yeah, it's called c sharp [C#]

wrote in message news:5805283@discussion.autodesk.com...
I am of the impression that Microsoft have already started on a replacement
language for C++ though I don't know when they will do so