topic Re: Integrating MEP and Architectural Model for Systems Analysis Revit 2020 in Revit MEP Forum

Integrating MEP and Architectural Model for Systems Analysis Revit 2020

Anonymous — Mon, 09 Mar 2020 20:20:04 GMT

I have a Revit Architectural model that I have linked with A Revit MEP model for the same building and I am attempting to run a HVAC Systems Analysis. My results from the HVAC Systems Analysis show 0 total onsite energy usage. The Revit MEP model and Architectural model were both created in Revit 2017 and I have done my best to upgrade them and set up everything appropriately for a system analysis, but I can't seem to get any results. I have gone through the architectural model and created spaces and assigned analytical values to those spaces, but still nothing. I have linked the file with the linked MEP and architecture files. Any tips on how to make this work would be very much appreciated. Thank you.

Re: Integrating MEP and Architectural Model for Systems Analysis Revit 2020

hmunsell — Sun, 08 Mar 2020 13:57:15 GMT

Never tried to run an energy analysis in the Arch model. We always run the energy analysis in the mechanical model.

Re: Integrating MEP and Architectural Model for Systems Analysis Revit 2020

Anonymous — Sun, 08 Mar 2020 18:46:47 GMT

How do you determine the square footages of spaces within an MEP model?

https://blogs.autodesk.com/revit/2019/08/21/revit-systems-analysis/

This blog from Autodesk also implies that you can do an analysis by combining architectural elements like material thermal properties, but does not specifically say how you are meant do that. It states "Systems analysis extends Revit’s location and climate data, material thermal properties and building/space type occupancy, lighting, equipment, outdoor air information and more. Use this information to enhance and customize your analysis for better building performance."

How can I incorporate material thermal properties with just an MEP model?

Edit: I found this webinar that does a walkthrough. I'm going to try and follow it and see if I can get better results.

https://www.autodesk.com/aec/webinars/buildings

Re: Integrating MEP and Architectural Model for Systems Analysis Revit 2020

Anonymous — Sun, 08 Mar 2020 23:01:18 GMT

After watching the webinar, I've got some clarification on a lot of things but also more confusion. When you say you only do energy analysis using the mechanical model, can you let me know what you mean specifically? Which analysis tool are you running? The webinar I watched did all the systems analysis using just an architectural model. You could input parameters for HVAC and other mechanical devices, but they were just inputs for the architectural model, they weren't actually from the MEP model.

Re: Integrating MEP and Architectural Model for Systems Analysis Revit 2020

Anonymous — Mon, 09 Mar 2020 02:04:47 GMT

Just to add some more detail to my question, when I open the MEP model by itself and open System Browser, I see the Mechanical, Piping and Electrical Systems, as in the picture. But if I open system browser with the Architectural model and a linked MEP model, I do not see any of the MEP systems in system browser, only the analytical spaces from the architectural model.

Re: Integrating MEP and Architectural Model for Systems Analysis Revit 2020

hmunsell — Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:34:59 GMT

Sorry, had billable work to do 😊.

Back you your questions…. Some of it boils down to what your analyzing. Are you doing Energy Optimization or are you looking for actual Loads and Pressure Loss from systems placed in the model? My Architects only used the Optimization tools to do preliminary analysis. Once content is created, they defer to the Mechanical engineers do the analysis in the Mechanical models. There were a lot of good classes at AU2019 on this topic.

You can do Energy Optimization in the Architectural model, but when I want information from what was actually placed I use the Mechanical reports from the Mechanical ribbon. The Mechanical model is where your Mechanical content (equipment, duct, diffusers, spaces, etc…) lives. Of course, have your Architectural and Structural models linked into the Mechanical model.

Re: Integrating MEP and Architectural Model for Systems Analysis Revit 2020

Anonymous — Tue, 10 Mar 2020 18:51:54 GMT

Thank you so much for the reply, and I'm sorry for the confusion with my questions. It's very much a case where I don't know what I don't know at this point, so sometimes it's difficult to even frame a question in a way that makes use to people who are very familiar with the product. I have many more questions. Some are just general and not related to your specific MEP analysis, so you may not be able to answer them.

What you're saying makes good sense. One point of confusion I still have is the difference between "Heating and Cooling Loads" analysis and "HVAC Systems and Load Sizing". From what little I can tell, you are meant to run the "Heating and Cooling Loads" analysis first to provide information for the "HVAC Systems and Load Sizing", but I'm still confused on exactly how it is meant to work.

As far as MEP options within the architectural model, you can choose HVAC System from "Advanced Energy Settings" and you are given options like "Central VAV, HW Heat:" or "12 SEER HSPF Split Heat Pump".

Or you can run "Heating and cooling Loads" and pick a building service type, but they do not line up with the same service types in the "Advanced Energy Settings".

Then you also have the option of creating system zones and adding "Zone Equjipment", which provides yet another set of HVAC parameters.

How do all of these work together? Does one override the others if you run different analysis?

When you say you have linked architectural and Mechanical models, is the architectural model actually reading data from the mechanical model?

Does anyone have an example of an architectural model with systems built directly into it that uses Revit 2020 analysis?

I did watch most of the videos you linked. The ones from Ian Molloy are especially helpful. I have learned a lot and have been running some great looking models, but there are just some holes in the knowledge that are difficult to fill at this point, given the shortage of people actually familiar with Revit 2020 systems analysis tools. Some more detailed instructional videos would be very helpful, using more complicated buildings and a wider variety of systems analysis.

I think I'm going to make a step-by-step video of the process I have been going through to more easily outline the areas where I get stuck or have confusion.

Re: Integrating MEP and Architectural Model for Systems Analysis Revit 2020

hmunsell — Tue, 10 Mar 2020 19:24:59 GMT

Not a problem... i'm not a MEP engineer but i do support my MEP engineers with there issues. they know HVAC engineering and a lot of the time i just need to point them in the right direction and they run with it :-).

@Anonymous wrote:
...you are meant to run the "Heating and Cooling Loads" analysis first to provide information for the "HVAC Systems and Load Sizing"...

Maybe some else can chime in with there experience, but none of my engineers use the Energy Optimization > Energy Analysis. if you want to check how the model was built, they use the Analyze > Reports & Schedules tools.

As far as MEP options within the architectural model, you can choose HVAC System from "Advanced Energy Settings" and you are given options like "Central VAV, HW Heat:" or "12 SEER HSPF Split Heat Pump".

Or you can run "Heating and cooling Loads" and pick a building service type, but they do not line up with the same service types in the "Advanced Energy Settings".

Then you also have the option of creating system zones and adding "Zone Equjipment", which provides yet another set of HVAC parameters.

i have shown this to my engineers, but most of this is hypothetical, not how the model was/is built. my architects sometimes use this for early pre-analysis, before Mechanical gets involved, to try to find extra LEED points, and check Sun study's, but that's about it.

When you say you have linked architectural and Mechanical models, is the architectural model actually reading data from the mechanical model?

Not to my knowledge. if it dose, we do not use it that way in my office. we do all our HVAC/Energy/Lighting analysis in the MEP models.

Does anyone have an example of an architectural model with systems built directly into it that uses Revit 2020 analysis?

this could be done on small office or residential models. my office works on very large models and each discipline has there own model to work in. Lighting analysis is done in the Electrical model where the electrical engineers place the lights. The HVAC Loads are done in the Mechanical model where the equipment is.

I did watch most of the videos you linked. The ones from Ian Molloy are especially helpful. I have learned a lot and have been running some great looking models, but there are just some holes in the knowledge that are difficult to fill at this point, given the shortage of people actually familiar with Revit 2020 systems analysis tools. Some more detailed instructional videos would be very helpful, using more complicated buildings and a wider variety of systems analysis.

i regularly refer back to AU classes. there a wealth of knowledge. i FWD them to my staff and get feedback on what they want to learn more about. depending on where your located, reach out to your local reseller or Revit users Group

Re: Integrating MEP and Architectural Model for Systems Analysis Revit 2020

Anonymous — Tue, 10 Mar 2020 19:36:46 GMT

Thank you so much again for your time and information. I really appreciate it.

"we do all our HVAC/Energy/Lighting analysis in the MEP models."

Do you think you could possibly share exactly what sort of analysis your MEP teams are running on your models? Do you by any chance have an example you would be comfortable sharing? Perhaps from an older project? I'm new to the world of modeling in general, and doing my best to do MEP modeling with the information I am given. Are you using Revit to run MEP models or are you using some other sort of MEP modeling software and then incorporating that data into Revit?

Re: Integrating MEP and Architectural Model for Systems Analysis Revit 2020

Anonymous — Wed, 11 Mar 2020 02:57:07 GMT

Finding the heating load and cooling load must be done first. Use the
information from the architectural model. In the United States, the Revit
heating and cooling load calculations do not meet mechanical codes.

In the mechanical model, one uses the heating/cooling load information to
size equipment.

A mechanical engineer usually performs the heating/cooling loads and
selects the equipment.