topic Re: Adding a flowing parameter in mechanical - flow in Revit MEP Forum

Adding a flowing parameter in mechanical - flow

9009676 — Mon, 25 Nov 2024 13:49:09 GMT

Hi there,

The built in revit MEP domestic water flowing parameters works based on Fixture units and flow.

Here in the netherlands we work with Tap eenheden, its basicly the same as fixture units but the values are different.

I made a family off an wallplate (since all our instllations end there) and made a new parameter called TE. then made entered a formula so it projects the flow, see the picture below;

this works, but when i use the system inspector it only projects the flow. I want to project the flow & TE instead of the Flow & FU.

I also want to make the TE flow through te piping system just like the Flow and Fixture units would. but the parameter TE (wich is a shared project parameter) comes up empty. it only projects the value on the wallplates

On the wall plate family:

On the pipe / fittings:

As i said before i want the TE to automaticly add up and let the parameter "flow" throught the system.

Hope someone can help me out.

Thanks in advance!

Re: Adding a flowing parameter in mechanical - flow

iainsavage — Mon, 25 Nov 2024 15:25:56 GMT

I don't think you can alter the behaviour of the System Inspector, its hard coded in the software.

As regards your TE method, that won't work either since you can't pass the values through the pipe network.

The only option, as far as I am aware, is to learn some programming and create your own addin calculator to use for plumbing calculations instead of the built-in International Plumbing Code method.

There used to be an addin from Intelika which used Danish(?) fixture unit values and conversion graphs but it was discontinued in 2019 I think.

I've seen a UK consulting engineer who had there own version based on UK methods but I think they only used it in-house.

There are several posts on this topic already and in one or two of them there is a link to @jeremytammik 's Building Coder website describing how to create your own addin. I've never done so.

Not being a programmer the best that I could do was to tweak the IPC FU values to get flowrates which approximated to what I would have got if I had a UK version calculator.

Note though that the IPC method imposes minimum flowrates for systems at 15 USgpm for systems set to "predominantly flush valves" or 5(?) USgpm for systems set to "predominantly flush tanks".

Re: Adding a flowing parameter in mechanical - flow

Crystal_Duck — Tue, 26 Nov 2024 01:37:10 GMT

Revit not good at this

Pls use another piping sortware in this case

Re: Adding a flowing parameter in mechanical - flow

iainsavage — Tue, 26 Nov 2024 07:37:00 GMT

@Crystal_Duck Revit does calculate fixture units and flows accurately so its not true to say that it is "not good at this", but natively it ONLY uses the IPC method.

You keep telling people to use other software for calculations and I've asked a couple of times how you would get the data from your external software back into the model?

How would you do that?

How would you use the data in your external software to set pipe sizes in the Revit model (other than manually changing pipe sizes).

How would using external software allow @9009676 to track the diversity factors through the piping network using system inspector as they have asked?

I am genuinely interested to know if you have a valid method which passes data from an external software back to the built-in FU and Flow parameters in the Revit model because that would be excellent if that is possible.

PS: this post follows a similar discussion and includes the link to @jeremytammik 's page

Re: Adding a flowing parameter in mechanical - flow

Crystal_Duck — Tue, 26 Nov 2024 09:44:30 GMT

The problem is how can you control all the system in revit ?

In complex piping system, you have to calc pipe size based on variety of prameter like: flow, vislocity, Density, Temperature,Pipe material,Pipe schedule,Pressure drop,Head loss,Elevation changes,...

----------

I use the data from other sortware to build a completely revit system, what wrong with this ?

If you want to track the change, This is easy, Take a look at "pipe wizard" sortware

I am also interested how can you controll a whole system pipe or duct in revit.

Re: Adding a flowing parameter in mechanical - flow

iainsavage — Tue, 26 Nov 2024 14:27:19 GMT

"In complex piping system, you have to calc pipe size based on variety of prameter like: flow, vislocity, Density, Temperature,Pipe material,Pipe schedule,Pressure drop,Head loss,Elevation changes,." Revit does all of that except the elevation changes.

My question was, if someone uses external software or spreadsheets as you tend to advise, how then do you get the data back into the model to populate the parameters for pipes and fittings etc in the model and how do you match the pipe sizes in the model to the sizes that you have calculated with the external software?

I don't know what "pipe wizard" is - does it do all of the data transfer back and forth and adjust pipe sizes etc accordingly?

Also would the system inspector then show the correct data that has been imported from the external software?

I'm genuinely interested in your workflow because it might be of great benefit if it works.

Re: Adding a flowing parameter in mechanical - flow

dbutts7 — Wed, 27 Nov 2024 12:54:29 GMT

are you referring to this software:

https://www.pipeflow.com/pipe-flow-wizard-software

Re: Adding a flowing parameter in mechanical - flow

iainsavage — Wed, 27 Nov 2024 13:48:39 GMT

Thanks for the link.

Still not clear in how the results are transferred back to Revit and pipe sizes etc adjusted - @Crystal_Duck could you clarify this please, it would be of great help to many if it integrates with Revit somehow?

I'm also not clear from their website if the software includes fixture unit methods or other means of applying system diversity for water supply systems?

So @Crystal_Duck , would this software solve @9009676 's issues with customising the FU to Flowrate method specific to their location?

Finally, there's the cost for another piece of software.

Ideally either (or both):-

Revit should have a choice of built-in plumbing flow calculators rather than just the IPC one and/or
Autodesk should provide a simple step-by-step tutorial on how Joe Average user can create a plugin which adds their own custom calculator.

On that last point I've tried a couple of times to follow the stuff on Building Coder and the linked AU2015 information and I've made virtually no progress (and I don't think I'm particularly stupid, I'm just not familiar with C#, Visual Studio etc. My programming "expertise" stalled after Microsoft Basic).

@Joseph_Peel maybe you could explain in more detail how you achieved this?

Re: Adding a flowing parameter in mechanical - flow

dbutts7 — Wed, 27 Nov 2024 14:02:36 GMT

That's the one we used to use for pipe sizing but there was not a method to copy the data back into Revit. We manually added summary data as needed but mainly used it to confirm the calculated values (using Darcy) for Revit.

Re: Adding a flowing parameter in mechanical - flow

dbutts7 — Wed, 27 Nov 2024 14:05:42 GMT

@iainsavage now I'm wondering if we could use the exported XLS files to create a link into an exported schedule and data links (aka from DiRoots that allows bidrectional exchanges) to get the data back into Revit, with none-built in parameters. Do you know of anyone who has tried this?

Re: Adding a flowing parameter in mechanical - flow

dbutts7 — Wed, 27 Nov 2024 14:08:45 GMT

Getting back to the main topic of converting to a different measurement value, while we can't get the System inspector to show it, it should be pretty easy to do a pipe system schedule and expose the data that way. Looking ahead, I'd also talk to Sean Fruin about using a data exchange to isolate the system for review and let the user select an element to see the properties that way.

There's a ton of potential here...

Re: Adding a flowing parameter in mechanical - flow

iainsavage — Wed, 27 Nov 2024 14:10:50 GMT

"Do you know of anyone who has tried this?"

No but I was hoping that @Crystal_Duck had a tried and tested method.

Re: Adding a flowing parameter in mechanical - flow

crystal_adamsZRJ96 — Wed, 27 Nov 2024 14:14:44 GMT

Re: Adding a flowing parameter in mechanical - flow

Crystal_Duck — Wed, 27 Nov 2024 14:15:52 GMT

Hi,.

Depending on the complexity, I will use a calculation file built from Excel or other software, for example, here is Pipe Wizard
Those parameters are used as input data when designing, so if there is any change, editing in Revit is also very easy
I only use Revit to count the number of pipes, valves, bolts, flanges, etc,...
In the past, I tried using Revit to calculate velocity, friction, pressure loss,... but it was not effective.

Re: Adding a flowing parameter in mechanical - flow

Crystal_Duck — Wed, 27 Nov 2024 14:21:22 GMT

Currently, I use export/import excel plugin to do this, but it only create a fake schedule

Re: Adding a flowing parameter in mechanical - flow

iainsavage — Wed, 27 Nov 2024 14:48:31 GMT

It seems, if I'm understanding correctly, that in Revit the FU to flow conversion is controlled in the API by this:

and that an alternative method can be defined by using this:

Not sure what the next step is though but if I have time I'll keep trying.

Re: Adding a flowing parameter in mechanical - flow

iainsavage — Wed, 27 Nov 2024 15:01:29 GMT

...and these:-

So, in words it seems that you have to:-

define an alternative non-IPC method (table? graph? formula?) to convert non-IPC fixture units to flow values
give the user the choice of which method to use (in mechanical settings?)
tell Revit to use that external method

You would then set YOUR METHOD's fixture unit values in the model's plumbing fixtures, Revit would then convert those FUs to YOUR METHOD's appropriate flow values.

Pipe sizing and pressure loss etc would then use those flow values and system inspector would, I assume, show the correct flow and FU values based on YOUR METHOD.

Now how do I translate those words into code?

Re: Adding a flowing parameter in mechanical - flow

iainsavage — Wed, 27 Nov 2024 15:25:28 GMT

Now found this post which might help.

I'll study it later.

Re: Adding a flowing parameter in mechanical - flow

dbutts7 — Wed, 27 Nov 2024 15:25:50 GMT

that's interesting - never knew they had opened that data to an external resource...wondering when this was implemented? Aren't calcs external performed already?

Re: Adding a flowing parameter in mechanical - flow

iainsavage — Wed, 27 Nov 2024 20:06:36 GMT

So I have explored the zip package downloaded from the link that I posted earlier.

The plugin was designed for Revit 2019 which I no longer have.

I tried it in 2021 but it failed and issued several warnings on Revit startup including all of the pipe calculations being missing from the Revit session.

After a bit of trial and error I managed to update it for 2021 by changing the .NET version from 4.7 to 4.8 and adding references to the 2021 versions of RevitAPI.dll and RevitAPIUI.dll.

It then "worked" in 2021 in that it loaded and when I go to Mechanical Settings > Calculation > Flow I am able to select the alternative calculator.

However no matter how many fixture units there are in the system it reports the same ridiculously high flow for every pipe.

System inspector works and reports the "correct" values (in that it shows the same data as the pipe properties):-

So there is a serious flaw in how the calculator converts FUs to flow but at least I got it to load!

One step forward.....