topic Re: What is the best way to create Casework Families? in Revit Architecture Forum

What is the best way to create Casework Families?

Caed9 — Fri, 27 May 2022 06:44:39 GMT

Hello I have some concerns with creating Revit Casework Parametric Families.

Please check the video I attached below for better understanding.

I created a wall based cabinet family with several parameters in order to have a cabinet that can change not only in dimensions but in appearance, for example this cabinets can have a single door or a double door. Also the Doors can have a central glass panel. I can get all of those appearances, or types all in one single family file.

I'm a little hesitant to moving on with that kind of approach. I just want to ask what you think about it, or any suggestions, opinions, or feedback you could give me. It would be truly appreaciated.

Some of the pros are:

the file size is 1.5 mb
I only have to create one family
I get to have all those families once without loading additional families as they are all in one
I don't have to be on top of numerous family files, on regards to them being on the same format, (same shared parameters, same parameter names).
I can change the appearance of the family with fewer clics.

some of the cons are:

I noticed Revit takes a while regenerating, (not that long) everytime I change the parameters
It may require an odd way to sort them out in schedules as all have the same family name
The type names will require more description
I have to set only crucial type parameters and set the rest as instance in order to avoid overcrowded type names.
It requires a considerably time and memory to create and store all the formulas.
If I get to share my families with a central model, It may be difficult for another person to learn how to use the parameters.

I currently don't have experience working with a Central File as a Team, I'm just creating families in order to amass a robust library, so that I can Implement in Revit Projects on the future.

So there is my dilema I was about to create base cabinet families with the same method, but I really want to read your feedback.

Many thanks

Re: What is the best way to create Casework Families?

L.Maas — Fri, 27 May 2022 06:53:52 GMT

There is not a real clear answer. The discussion about simple vs "super"families has been talked about a lot.

Basically it depends. What is your work flow, who are your users, what are the needs of your client, how do you work together with other parties and so on. But try to keep it simple.

Some things:

Instance parameters. If the user has to set many instance parameters it indeed gets quite confusing fast, depending on the knowledge of those people about the product. You might consider creating a type a catalog. Then you can have many types and the user only has to load the ones he needs for the project. It also has the advantage that they do not have to change the parameters that much (preventing the slow regeneration times). In that case you try to limit the amount of instance parameters. Also many instance parameters might end up with an non existing product

Also consider, do you really need al those variations and then also shown in the geometry (maybe a simple value/catalog number will be enough?).

When the family gets realy complex and many types, you might consider to split it in a few different families (e.g single vs double doors and so on). How to split it miight depend how it is used in projects

In general I would make a type catalog. Consider if I really need it to be seen (vs just a value) and would consider of all those variations are really needed or limit it to fewer tyeps (the most used ones). With this I have made families with over 250 types in a type catalog (which I can prepare in e.g. Excel).

And one more thing, be careful with using wall based families. If you work with linked (architectural) files then know that wall based families do not work through linked files. In most cases you tend to work with unhosted families or face based families. But that is a whole other discussion.

Re: What is the best way to create Casework Families?

Caed9 — Fri, 27 May 2022 07:47:09 GMT

@L.Maas thats what I thought I got a litle crazy there with all of those parametes in a single family.

I'm in the architecture background and I want to have as many options for the kitchen cabinetry as possible. As an Architect I want to cover as far as fixed furniture on the designs. I may be touching interior design territory there with all of those types and parameters. But it will be nice to have detailed renderings and specifications that match the final product.

There is something I haven't tried as I find it a little unclear, that is creating a template. I always feel I leave something out after saving it. A wall cabinet template would be helpful to cover all the common parameters, only to add the specific parameters for each family using it.

Many thanks, your reply has helped me clear most of my doubts, I'll Try splitting that family for good. To think all that time wasted figuring out all those formulas there hehe.

And thanks for letting me know about the wall cabinet limitations, I'm currently using Revit 2023, but it probably is still the same. Best to Skip wall based and avoid errors then.

Re: What is the best way to create Casework Families?

Caed9 — Fri, 27 May 2022 07:54:58 GMT

Sorry I missed the types catalog on your reply, I'll try that option too. I'll check if that method can help me keep the family as it is. That option seems "super family" friendly. Thanks again!

Re: What is the best way to create Casework Families?

L.Maas — Fri, 27 May 2022 09:36:20 GMT

Do not worry too much about the amount of parameters in a family. If they do not drive the geometry and if they do not have to be set by users, confusing them, they do not have too much impact on the family.

Voids, arrays, complex families (lots of geometry) and lots of complex formulas usually determine performance of a family.

When you talk about wall cabinet template, do you mean a family template or a project template?

If you mean a family template, then yes you can create a "template" with the most common parameters (or with more parameters that you delete when not needing them).

Basically start a new family and then add the parameters and safe it as a family. Then load it up, build your family and do a save-as.

Be aware that you might need several. Not all family templates are the same and can not all be switched to another type (e.g wall based family can not be changed to a face based family).

You say that you are using Revit 2023. Be aware that Revit is not backwards compatible.

So if client/team is demanding to use Revit 2021 you can not use your build Revit 2023 families.

I tend to create my families in older versions. At the moment I use Revit 2019 for family building as in my experience this is the oldest version what is requested to me at the moment.

After that (if needed) I can make a copy and upgrade them to newer Revit versions.

Loading older families in a newer Revit project takes some additional time.

Re: What is the best way to create Casework Families?

ToanDN — Fri, 27 May 2022 08:27:37 GMT

That's is very lagging. Do you use nested components associated with Family type parameters (labels) for selecting types?

Re: What is the best way to create Casework Families?

Caed9 — Fri, 27 May 2022 10:06:42 GMT

Yes there are nested shared families within nested shared families within the Family. There are instance parameters that are associated with parameters on the Upper Cabinet Family.

In the scenerio of my video, the Doors are shared families with associated parameters nested on the Upper Cabinet Family. And the Door hardware is also a shared family inside the Door shared family with associated parameters that go up to the Upper Cabinet Family. Also, the glass panel nested inside the Door shared family is a shared family as well, in order to have the option to select it on the project and override graphics in view and set a surface transparency, as that option is not available in Hidden lines visual Style. All the shared families excluding the glass panel have formulas driven by parameters that end up being associated with parameters on the hosting family which generates some types.

I did that in case I want to hide any geometry by picking it, because visibility graphics hides everything, I may need to hide certain geometry if its shown in a steep angle at a section, thats just me being paranoid about cluthered lines in smaller scales.

I also noticed that changing the type parameters makes some of the geometry transparent in the project. I'll try using the Types catalog in order to not mess with those type parameters inside the project. if its still showing those bugs I'll have to split into different families using a common family template for that specific kind of family. I honestly wanted to avoid going full autocad creating each family hehe. I think I went to far with the avoidance though.

Thanks for the comment I'll take it into consideration

Re: What is the best way to create Casework Families?

Caed9 — Fri, 27 May 2022 10:49:33 GMT

I mean Family Templates. That way all the configurations of the family can be stored inside my pc folders as separate families. And get rid of many formulas that won't be needed afterwards. As you said, I will have to create several family templates for specific families.

The other reason I set up everything inside one family is to save space, the family I created is barely 1.5 megabytes, 1,532 KB. That's where I get confused, cause the file basically contains like 8 families of 1 mb each, the minimun I've seen is 400 kb in very simple families (like just one extrusion). But I may guess that does not translate to performance.

I want to try doing the Type catalog so that I don't have to deal with the Type properties , and maybe split the family into two and get rid of some geometry as well.

Yeah I recently moved to Revit 2023 because it now allows to join casework category families. You are right, many people I know even use 2018 version. There, another issue for me, thanks for the advice.

Re: What is the best way to create Casework Families?

ToanDN — Fri, 27 May 2022 10:55:53 GMT

I get that you nesting shared families, but you didn't answer if you use Family Types parameters as Type selector.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/add-choices-your-revit-families-family-type-parameters-paul-aubin/

Re: What is the best way to create Casework Families?

Caed9 — Fri, 27 May 2022 11:06:02 GMT

By type selector you mean the drop down list on top of the properties palette?

I haven't configured type names yet.

Do you think that could fix the lagging?. I'll try to set it up today I'll post the update.

Re: What is the best way to create Casework Families?

ToanDN — Fri, 27 May 2022 11:15:45 GMT

No that is not what I meant, and apparently your answer to the question is a clear No. Can you share the family?

Meanwhile, spend a few minutes to read the link I posted, scroll down to Family Type parameter part.

Re: What is the best way to create Casework Families?

Caed9 — Sun, 29 May 2022 16:45:51 GMT

I get you, you mean:

As far as I know the Type Parameter, gives you list to pick a family type from a specific Category the only issue is that it shows all the families from the Catefory if its shared, and have to be careful when picking them. It says the nested family must not be shared in order to narrow down the list.

There you go, its kind of messy

Re: What is the best way to create Casework Families?

ToanDN — Fri, 27 May 2022 20:18:19 GMT

I think the handle is the culprit. You have too many voids and they cause lagging. I tested by removing it from the cabinet and swapping type was a snap. I suggest using different handle families instead of one family with 6 profiles and countless voids.

By the way, you can simplify formulas for y/n parameters and yield the same results. Example:

Yours: if(and(Handle, Door_Type_4 < 4, Pull_Type_4 = 2), 1 = 1, 1 = 0)

Mine: and(Handle, Door_Type_4 < 4, Pull_Type_4 = 2)

Not saying that it would improve the performance, but it is cleaner.

Re: What is the best way to create Casework Families?

Caed9 — Sat, 28 May 2022 20:50:08 GMT

@ToanDN So that handle is causing all the lag. There are like 17 different profiles there.

It could be better only to create them as separate shared families as you said. Then I can swap them by just naming them with the same name as the one nested on the family and load them directly on the project so that it applies for all the caswork families that contain the nested handle family.

Thanks for your reply, and for the tip on how to simplify the formula I didn't know it could be written like that.