topic Re: Crickets in a low slope roof in Revit Architecture Forum

Crickets in a low slope roof

Philip_ATX — Thu, 09 Jan 2025 18:32:20 GMT

Student here working on an assignment:

A design for a class project requires a low slope (1/4:12) roof with crickets to direct flow of water to roof drains. The valleys in the crickets are specified to run/direct the flow down the extent of the roof, and thus superficially added crickets near the drain won't fulfill the requirements.

I understand how to create crickets on a *FLAT* roof using the contextual "shape editing" panel that appears for a flat roof, and how to model a sloped roof, but I am at a loss as to how to create shallow crickets atop a sloped roof, essentially combining the two. (The structural deck beneath is essentially an expansive, shallow butterfly roof, but water needs some directing due to the walls and parapets.)

For this course, I cannot do any redesigns, as the purpose is to problem solve using the app.

I am wondering if one could, for instance, extrude a rigid insulation wedge (flat on top, sloped along deck below) to fill the space between a much shallower, modified "flat" roof (lifted on the up-slope side using the shape editing tools) and the deck beneath? (This would probably require me to break the roof into pieces as the structural deck at the top of the rake sits at a slightly higher elev. than the top of the top EPDM roof finish.) Is there any way to create as a single assembly?

Re: Crickets in a low slope roof

azad.Nanva — Fri, 10 Jan 2025 08:50:12 GMT

@Philip_ATX

Step 1: Create the Main Roof

Go to the Architecture Tab → Roof by Footprint.
Draw the outline of your primary roof using the desired shape and slope settings.
Set the Slope:
- Use the Define Slope checkbox for edges that need a slope.
- Set the slope angle as needed.

Step 2: Add Crickets

Duplicate the Roof Type:
- In the Properties Palette, select the roof type and duplicate it (e.g., "Cricket Roof").
- Adjust the thickness and material properties to suit the cricket.
Use Roof by Footprint or Roof by Extrusion:
- For simpler crickets, use Roof by Footprint.
- For complex geometries, use Roof by Extrusion.
Model the Cricket Shape:
- Create small, triangular roof segments (crickets) connecting high points to low points on the roof.
- Use the Define Slope tool to ensure proper water drainage.

Step 3: Adjust the Cricket Geometry

Use the Modify Sub-Elements tool to fine-tune the cricket slopes:
1. Select the roof or cricket.
2. Click Modify Sub-Elements from the ribbon.
3. Adjust individual points and edges to form valleys and ridges.

Step 4: Join the Roofs

If the cricket is modeled as a separate roof, use the Join Geometry tool to visually unify the cricket and main roof.

Step 5: Add Gutters and Drains

Place Roof Gutters: Use the Gutter Tool from the Architecture tab to attach gutters along the edges.
Model Drains: Add custom drain families at low points for a realistic look.

Tips for Success

Use the Section Views to verify slopes and connections.
Ensure proper alignment of roof edges for seamless integration.
Adjust cricket materials to match the primary roof or highlight them for clarity.

Re: Crickets in a low slope roof

Philip_ATX — Sat, 11 Jan 2025 21:58:39 GMT

Thanks, @azad.Nanva.

This is essentially one of the two approaches I was hypothesizing I could do. (The other was to create a sloped "wedge" by extruding insulation between the sloped structural deck and having a flat top upon which to build the cricketed flat roof.)

Since the run of my roof is very long, the structural deck will rise to an elevation that is higher than the low end of the roof surface, a flat roof would descend beneath my structural deck. Rather than using a "join" tool, I wish I could "cut" the offending excess material below the deck. That would be easier. With this additive process, I assume I will need to do this in sections to avoid the base descending too low...

Okay, so now I have attempted to create the assembly per instructions.

I don't know why, but when I attempt to "join" my cricketed roof atop the sloped roof, the join tool doesn't appear to be working. (Is the perhaps because the two assembly types are slightly different? I made the rigid insulation on the "flat" "cricket" assembly significantly thinner to avoid an overlap with structural deck on the uphill end.) I still have overlapping materials, and take-offs would also presumably be inaccurate. Otherwise, this would be a perfect solution.

I am starting to think I should have extruded filler wedges of rigid insulation atop the sloped structural deck to create flat surfaces upon which to build a cricketed roof. (?) I would unfortunately need to create the roof in sections up the rake as the rise of the roof exceeds the thickness of the entire system, but even it I couldn't do a seamless join with these sub-assemblies, the cumulative material take-offs should be accurate.

(Dunno if the below helps clarify. The selected (blue) "flat" cricket layer on this shorter run penetrates below into the non-highlighted sloped deck. I would rather avoid the duplicated materials.)

Re: Crickets in a low slope roof

RDAOU — Sun, 12 Jan 2025 03:23:41 GMT

@Philip_ATX

How may drainage points are there? a couple or so many...If too many, then modeling the crickets in a family might be worth it. If just a few the roof by footprint + modify sub elements would be the easiest

Re: Crickets in a low slope roof

azad.Nanva — Mon, 13 Jan 2025 09:00:54 GMT

Hi @Philip_ATX ,

If i understand well,I try to explain:

(view in My Videos)

Re: Crickets in a low slope roof

Philip_ATX — Tue, 14 Jan 2025 16:46:20 GMT

Thanks, @azad.Nanva.

And I apologize. I think I am failing to explain my issue, though I think the below capture from your video (2:34) shows same issue:

...namely, there are overlapping roofs, and not a seamless continuation of one, joined system. This duplication of overlapping systems, presumably, will affect material takeoffs, and the cricketed roof as modeled by this process descends *into* the space beneath the structural deck for the main roof. (Does that make sense?) Ideally I would like to cut and/or join the overlapping systems such that the materials in the two assemblies reflect the intention of the construction, and such that I don't have e.g. the EPDM top finish of my assembly modeled as plunging into the main roof, and portions of this system emerging beneath the structural deck. If I just have to fake it, so be it.

Re: Crickets in a low slope roof

RDAOU — Tue, 14 Jan 2025 17:30:36 GMT

You are both using non-variable layer and when the crickets get higher than the roof they are no longer crickets. you want to model it right and have both elements join property,

you gotta set the layer which is being modified to variable (preferably use multiple elements instead of 1 single element with multiple layers. With 1 it could work but with multiple one has better control over the falls.)
use realistic slopes…not a 6 foot high crickets. A few inches more and that crickets in the screenshot would be a gable

moreover, it would be good to mention what type of construction is it…maybe roof elements are not the right component to start with. Or maybe an image of the end result you are trying to reach if you have any drafted in any software before you started using revit

Re: Crickets in a low slope roof

Philip_ATX — Tue, 14 Jan 2025 17:11:50 GMT

Thanks @RDAOU

Your results are exactly what I am trying to do, and I think, honestly, both you and @azad.Nanva have confirmed that I have actually been trying to this correctly. I did see you *successfully* used the join tool to make the offending excess go away(?) I think my issue might be my inability to join.

I get a "Can't cut joined element" error *every* time I try to use the join tool. ("cut"??! I am not selecting the cut tool!!)

A bug? Or a dumb error on my part? (I *am* a noob...)

Re: Crickets in a low slope roof

ToanDN — Tue, 14 Jan 2025 17:34:38 GMT

If you need a lot of crickets then create a flat roof, modify sub-elements to add crickets, then use a void to shape off of bottom of the roof for the low main slope(s).

Re: Crickets in a low slope roof

Philip_ATX — Tue, 21 Jan 2025 22:45:27 GMT

I suspect I am on a red herring hunt, but did find this in the "Knowledge Base" search. Same error for similar application, but but using quite different elements...

Any idea where the "only show when cut" option is?

Re: Crickets in a low slope roof

RDAOU — Tue, 14 Jan 2025 17:48:03 GMT

Can u expand that error?

It says you are trying to cut joined elements…which are the elements being referred to as joined?

the more details you give the better one may understand what is going on at your end. A screen capture would be even better.

Edit: can you copy the roof and the walls/parapets, paste those in a blank file and mark up where the crickets should be to test at my end?

Re: Crickets in a low slope roof

ToanDN — Tue, 14 Jan 2025 17:47:09 GMT

@Philip_ATX wrote:
I suspect I am on a red herring hunt, but did find this in the "Knowledge Base" search. Similar situation, yet different...
Any idea where the "only show when cut" option is?

It is under family's editing environment and it has nothing to do with what you were describing.

Re: Crickets in a low slope roof

Philip_ATX — Wed, 15 Jan 2025 22:37:23 GMT

RDAOU, I am attempting to join two separate roof assemblies, one for the shallow slope, and one for the "flat" cricketed roof atop. My "flat" roof otherwise penetrates the deck where the slope of the deck runs uphill.

Attached is a scrn capture, which I have been resisting sharing. (Caveat: the instructor is neither architect nor engineer, he inherited this direction set, and is editing the directions on the fly in an effort to introduce (and challenge us to apply) additional Revit drafting techniques. There may be some egregious issues design-wise.)

The structural deck is essentially a very shallow "butterfly" type roof. Roof drains will be internal to the parapet (no scuppers) at the low points of triangles on the selected (I'ma say) "West" end of the roof.

The "Cricket zone" won't join, thus this two-toned hot mess...

[Edited to add: (I missed your other mssg,) I wonder if the fact that I created the "cricket" assembly with a narrower layer of rigid insulation to keep it proud of the deck might be preventing the join? I could imagine Revit sees two different roof types and says, "the heck you say, join these..."]

Re: Crickets in a low slope roof

Philip_ATX — Tue, 21 Jan 2025 22:17:53 GMT

ToanDN,

(Apologies, I need to refresh more often. I did not see your reply.) If I cannot do this the way the instructor had taught it, this might be the best option.

Re: Crickets in a low slope roof

Philip_ATX — Fri, 31 Jan 2025 18:52:06 GMT

@RDAOUthe below video capture I tried does not show popups nor pulldowns (making it pretty useless and not informative, actually) but error message appears when I try to *JOIN* the two elements. (It says "Can't *cut* joined elements" again as shown in earlier capture above.)

The elements are unpinned and detached, best I can tell. They are both now of identical types/assemblies.

My assumption is that you used the "join" tool just as I did (err... tried to do) to make the offending excess below the deck go away.

Thanks. I don't mean to be such a pain. I don't know if I am being thick, or if my app is glitching...

Re: Crickets in a low slope roof

Philip_ATX — Wed, 15 Jan 2025 22:33:32 GMT

"Edit: can you copy the roof and the walls/parapets, paste those in a blank file and mark up where the crickets should be to test at my end?"

...Should have explained that much of the structure of this file is largely copy monitored into this architectural file. As a student in a Revit course I'm in over my head with that stuff (again, the instructor is introducing us to concepts (!!)) so I don't know that I could easily create a manageable file to share.

I keep missing replies as I fail to refresh this open tab on my browser!

Re: Crickets in a low slope roof

Philip_ATX — Tue, 21 Jan 2025 22:58:31 GMT

I am going to mark this as solved, though I cannot seem to join the sloped portion and the cricketed portion. If anybody can verify if this can be done to simplify the process and avoid inaccurate material takeoffs, please share.

@RDAOU achieved what I was going for in their video, but I get the error message every time I try to do the same. The "join" tool results in a message saying I cannot "cut" the "joined" elements. (??!)

More images for further clarification: (Note selections as shown in properties pallet for clarification.)

...And upon using the join tool on the two selections:

Thanks all for your input. I will plan on workarounds in the future. I am assuming using the void tool, or creating a flat-topped filler "wedge" beneath a separate cricketed roof will be the best option moving forward.