topic Re: Getting started with Dot Net in .NET Forum

Getting started with Dot Net

Anonymous — Tue, 24 May 2005 10:15:46 GMT

Hi Folks,

I am quite new to AutoCAD development. I have been using AutoCAD for some time now but have not really done any development or customization. Since I am starting to look at the development .....thought of starting with Dot Net. Since, Dot Net is the future ...what say ..huh !!
I am not sure if I should start straight away without having a hands on with Lisp or Visual Lisp. Could someone please tell me if it is really necessary to go through Lisp, VBA, Visual Lisp to get started with Dot Net ...!!
And what is the best way to start with Dot Net in AutoCAD. What are the reference materials ? Is there is any kind of Getting Started Guide ?
Please guys ...I am getting confused.....

Thanks in anticipation.
Som

Re: Getting started with Dot Net

Anonymous — Tue, 24 May 2005 12:13:37 GMT

One thing that got my attention in Som's post is "...Since, Dot Net is the
future..." My follow-up question is, "What can .NET (C# specifically) do
that Java can't do?" I keep reading all this propaganda about .NET
applications running on non-Windows machines. In principle this sounds
great, but in practice there's probably little chance that major operating
systems will take on the .NET banner.

Supporter of Open Design Alliance (www.opendwg.org)

Tom
wrote in message news:4854209@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Folks,

I am quite new to AutoCAD development. I have been using AutoCAD for some
time now but have not really done any development or customization. Since I
am starting to look at the development .....thought of starting with Dot
Net. Since, Dot Net is the future ...what say ..huh !!
I am not sure if I should start straight away without having a hands on with
Lisp or Visual Lisp. Could someone please tell me if it is really necessary
to go through Lisp, VBA, Visual Lisp to get started with Dot Net ...!!
And what is the best way to start with Dot Net in AutoCAD. What are the
reference materials ? Is there is any kind of Getting Started Guide ?
Please guys ...I am getting confused.....

Thanks in anticipation.
Som

Re: Getting started with Dot Net

Mikko — Tue, 24 May 2005 12:56:22 GMT

Nothing really against Java, its just that I personally have never seen any Cad program running managed Java code. Would you even want to? Can you even? I also don't think there are many organizations running any autodesk product on anything but windows.

Re: Getting started with Dot Net

Anonymous — Tue, 24 May 2005 13:12:37 GMT

I do both Unigraphics programming (GRIP) and AutoCAD programming (AutoLisp
and VBA) I was excited to learn .NET because both of these CAD applications
support .NET. However, I recently heard that Unigraphics will (in the
future) also run under Linux. When I heard this, I lost interest in learning
.NET. I can't directly answer questions regarding Java but I am sure going
to investigate.

wrote in message news:4854341@discussion.autodesk.com...
Nothing really against Java, its just that I personally have never seen any
Cad program running managed Java code. Would you even want to? Can you
even? I also don't think there are many organizations running any autodesk
product on anything but windows.

Re: Getting started with Dot Net

Anonymous — Tue, 24 May 2005 13:36:19 GMT

Yes learn LISP! It's powerful with a short learning curve.
Especially if you don't know programming. Nice place
to start. Some will say it's not worth while, but they are
wrong. ;-( LISP will be around long after you have
learned and benifited from it.

VLISP->VBA/COM->ARX->dotNET seems a good
path for me.

If want to just use COM than dotNET will be relativly
simple. Pure dot net will require learning ARX first, or
so I have found. jmo might be me...

All of this has been discussed, do a search or three. Or better
yet open the VLIDE and start coding 😉 afralisp.com is a good start.

gl
Paul

wrote in message news:4854209@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Folks,

I am quite new to AutoCAD development. I have been using AutoCAD for some
time now but have not really done any development or customization. Since I
am starting to look at the development .....thought of starting with Dot
Net. Since, Dot Net is the future ...what say ..huh !!
I am not sure if I should start straight away without having a hands on with
Lisp or Visual Lisp. Could someone please tell me if it is really necessary
to go through Lisp, VBA, Visual Lisp to get started with Dot Net ...!!
And what is the best way to start with Dot Net in AutoCAD. What are the
reference materials ? Is there is any kind of Getting Started Guide ?
Please guys ...I am getting confused.....

Thanks in anticipation.
Som

Re: Getting started with Dot Net

Anonymous — Tue, 24 May 2005 14:00:01 GMT

Tom:

There is a cross platform implementation of the .NET framework called
mono[1]. I have yet to test anything on it but I do know it's developed by
Miguel de Icaza (the original author of Gnome) and is being used for some
pretty wild projects such as beagle[2].

Although C# is not a language I would prefer to use on linux (or any
platform really) I wish you luck.

Tim Riley

[1] http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page
[2] http://beaglewiki.org/Main_Page

"Tom Parkins" wrote in message
news:4854354@discussion.autodesk.com...
I do both Unigraphics programming (GRIP) and AutoCAD programming (AutoLisp
and VBA) I was excited to learn .NET because both of these CAD applications
support .NET. However, I recently heard that Unigraphics will (in the
future) also run under Linux. When I heard this, I lost interest in learning
.NET. I can't directly answer questions regarding Java but I am sure going
to investigate.

wrote in message news:4854341@discussion.autodesk.com...
Nothing really against Java, its just that I personally have never seen any
Cad program running managed Java code. Would you even want to? Can you
even? I also don't think there are many organizations running any autodesk
product on anything but windows.

Re: Getting started with Dot Net

Anonymous — Tue, 24 May 2005 15:04:07 GMT

Yeah, I'll say that's wrong Paul - least you know I'm not going to totally
flame you 😃

Having started over a decade ago with LISP, I'd agree with your case *if*
you said AutoLISP. However you started VLISP which is ridiculous. VLISP is
a "wrapper" to mimic vba so you might as well just learn vba. Most people
learn it faster since its object oriented and I bet the poster wants
dialogs which'll drag him down the dcl path =(

-- Mike
___________________________
Mike Tuersley
___________________________
the trick is to realize that there is no spoon...

Re: Getting started with Dot Net

Anonymous — Tue, 24 May 2005 15:05:35 GMT

Tom Parkins wrote:
> When I heard this, I lost interest in learning .NET.

Why? Languages are tools. The more comprehensive your tools are, the
better prepared you are to handle programming tasks.

Re: Getting started with Dot Net

Anonymous — Tue, 24 May 2005 15:15:15 GMT

Mike, Thanks for clarifying for me. I started ALISP about the same time,
haven't even use VLISP much. I usually get on people for being as sloppy,
a little more of a butt kicking wouldn't have hurt...;)

Paul
"Mike Tuersley" wrote in message
news:4854610@discussion.autodesk.com...
Yeah, I'll say that's wrong Paul - least you know I'm not going to totally
flame you 😃

Having started over a decade ago with LISP, I'd agree with your case *if*
you said AutoLISP. However you started VLISP which is ridiculous. VLISP is
a "wrapper" to mimic vba so you might as well just learn vba. Most people
learn it faster since its object oriented and I bet the poster wants
dialogs which'll drag him down the dcl path =(

-- Mike
___________________________
Mike Tuersley
___________________________
the trick is to realize that there is no spoon...

Re: Getting started with Dot Net

Anonymous — Tue, 24 May 2005 15:22:00 GMT

You made me go back and read my post...Two references
to LISP..Only one to VLISP and my intention was to point
out the editor. Picky Picky...But necessary. 😉 I prefer notepad
anwyay.
"Paul Richardson" wrote in message
news:4854629@discussion.autodesk.com...
Mike, Thanks for clarifying for me. I started ALISP about the same time,
haven't even use VLISP much. I usually get on people for being as sloppy,
a little more of a butt kicking wouldn't have hurt...;)

Paul
"Mike Tuersley" wrote in message
news:4854610@discussion.autodesk.com...
Yeah, I'll say that's wrong Paul - least you know I'm not going to totally
flame you 😃

Having started over a decade ago with LISP, I'd agree with your case *if*
you said AutoLISP. However you started VLISP which is ridiculous. VLISP is
a "wrapper" to mimic vba so you might as well just learn vba. Most people
learn it faster since its object oriented and I bet the poster wants
dialogs which'll drag him down the dcl path =(

-- Mike
___________________________
Mike Tuersley
___________________________
the trick is to realize that there is no spoon...

Re: Getting started with Dot Net

Anonymous — Tue, 24 May 2005 15:23:25 GMT

> I usually get on people for being as sloppy,
> a little more of a butt kicking wouldn't have hurt...;)
Naw, I normally come across abrasive as it and I like to keep the few
"acquaintances" that I have on good terms 😃

-- Mike
___________________________
Mike Tuersley
___________________________
the trick is to realize that there is no spoon...

Re: Getting started with Dot Net

Anonymous — Tue, 24 May 2005 15:29:08 GMT

>Naw, I normally come across abrasive as it and I like to keep the few
>"acquaintances" that I have on good terms 😃

Consider me one of them. But feel free to place me when need be..
Don't mind my due, if I learn something.

Thanks
Paul
"Mike Tuersley" wrote in message
news:4854624@discussion.autodesk.com...
> I usually get on people for being as sloppy,
> a little more of a butt kicking wouldn't have hurt...;)
Naw, I normally come across abrasive as it and I like to keep the few
"acquaintances" that I have on good terms 😃

-- Mike
___________________________
Mike Tuersley
___________________________
the trick is to realize that there is no spoon...

Re: Getting started with Dot Net

Anonymous — Tue, 24 May 2005 15:32:31 GMT

My toolbox is starting to fill up **SMILE** I am at a point where I am no
longer feeling proficient having all these tools available.

"Frank Oquendo" wrote in message
news:4854584@discussion.autodesk.com...
Tom Parkins wrote:
> When I heard this, I lost interest in learning .NET.

Why? Languages are tools. The more comprehensive your tools are, the
better prepared you are to handle programming tasks.

Re: Getting started with Dot Net

Anonymous — Tue, 24 May 2005 17:35:55 GMT

This seems as good a thread to post a question as any....
you mention VBA and DCL.....ive looked at a few dcl files and dont find
it very easy to interperet....ive also looked/dabbled, ever so slightly,
into VBA..
my question is, would it be better to use DCL or VBA if im using ALISP...im
leaning to VBA?

also, isnt the only difference between ALISP and VLISP the editor? to me
there
isnt a whopping difference...some tracing and loading... i may be wrong,
please inform me...
im very new at all the mentioned above (i know enough to maybe make me
dangerous)

3rd question...in pre-6 releases i was able to re-map the F keys (F4 to be
exact) in the .mns
files....now with the CUI stuff i cant seem to re-program them, even tho it
says you can...
anybody know how? Also when defining a new command it defaults the command
to the ADT(acad)
cui, not the enterprise or partial cui...anybody know how to make it define
it in the partial CUI?

enough i guess..
ccastelein

"Paul Richardson" wrote in message
news:4854659@discussion.autodesk.com...
>Naw, I normally come across abrasive as it and I like to keep the few
>"acquaintances" that I have on good terms 😃

Consider me one of them. But feel free to place me when need be..
Don't mind my due, if I learn something.

Thanks
Paul
"Mike Tuersley" wrote in message
news:4854624@discussion.autodesk.com...
> I usually get on people for being as sloppy,
> a little more of a butt kicking wouldn't have hurt...;)
Naw, I normally come across abrasive as it and I like to keep the few
"acquaintances" that I have on good terms 😃

-- Mike
___________________________
Mike Tuersley
___________________________
the trick is to realize that there is no spoon...

Re: Getting started with Dot Net

Anonymous — Tue, 24 May 2005 18:43:35 GMT

Do not create new dialogs with DCL; use WinForms (.NET), MFC or VBA
(probably in that order of preference).

Dan

"ccastelein" wrote in message
news:4854856@discussion.autodesk.com...
This seems as good a thread to post a question as any....
you mention VBA and DCL.....ive looked at a few dcl files and dont find
it very easy to interperet....ive also looked/dabbled, ever so slightly,
into VBA..
my question is, would it be better to use DCL or VBA if im using ALISP...im
leaning to VBA?

also, isnt the only difference between ALISP and VLISP the editor? to me
there
isnt a whopping difference...some tracing and loading... i may be wrong,
please inform me...
im very new at all the mentioned above (i know enough to maybe make me
dangerous)

3rd question...in pre-6 releases i was able to re-map the F keys (F4 to be
exact) in the .mns
files....now with the CUI stuff i cant seem to re-program them, even tho it
says you can...
anybody know how? Also when defining a new command it defaults the command
to the ADT(acad)
cui, not the enterprise or partial cui...anybody know how to make it define
it in the partial CUI?

enough i guess..
ccastelein

"Paul Richardson" wrote in message
news:4854659@discussion.autodesk.com...
>Naw, I normally come across abrasive as it and I like to keep the few
>"acquaintances" that I have on good terms 😃

Consider me one of them. But feel free to place me when need be..
Don't mind my due, if I learn something.

Thanks
Paul
"Mike Tuersley" wrote in message
news:4854624@discussion.autodesk.com...
> I usually get on people for being as sloppy,
> a little more of a butt kicking wouldn't have hurt...;)
Naw, I normally come across abrasive as it and I like to keep the few
"acquaintances" that I have on good terms 😃

-- Mike
___________________________
Mike Tuersley
___________________________
the trick is to realize that there is no spoon...

Re: Getting started with Dot Net

KrishnaK — Tue, 24 May 2005 19:35:47 GMT

Hi Somasekar,
You don't need to know LISP or VBA to learn the .NET API for AutoCAD. Prior experience in programming ObjectARX (C++ API) is useful but not a must. It is important to familiarize yourself with object oriented programming if you are coming from VB6 world as you will be dealing with lot of classes and objects. The most important concept to learn is the structure of AutoCAD drawing database and how to manipulate objects stored within it.

For learning, I suggest looking at the dotNet samples in the objectARX SDK (version 2006). The SDK is freely available at www.objectarx.com. Start from HelloWorld sample. For API reference, check out the ObjectARX reference in objectarx\docs\arxref.chm. Other than these, I can't think of any resources to help you get started. For someone who is looking at the API fresh, this is not enough. I strongly recommend the training class offered by Autodesk Developer Network (ADN). For more details on the class, contact Denis Cadu (denis.cadu@autodesk.com)

Cheers,
Krishna Kalvai
Developer Technical Services
Autodesk

Re: Getting started with Dot Net

Anonymous — Tue, 24 May 2005 21:28:16 GMT

Hi,

A major advantage of any program language over the Autolisp environment is
avoidance of DCL files which are useless for anything but interaction with
Autolisp. Certainly there is now a commercial solution for building DCL
which, by description, appears as useable as, say, a VBA form.

DCL files are a textual way of describing a graphical environment and as
such are complex and sensitive to typing errors and errors of logic, as well
as having a tedious write-testing cycle necessary to see the graphical
results of your code.

In practice, skill learnt in Autolisp will have no application outside the
AutoCAD environment and you will get far more programming out of the door by
learning VBA or .NET

--

Laurie Comerford
CADApps
www.cadapps.com.au

"ccastelein" wrote in message
news:4854856@discussion.autodesk.com...
This seems as good a thread to post a question as any....
you mention VBA and DCL.....ive looked at a few dcl files and dont find
it very easy to interperet....ive also looked/dabbled, ever so slightly,
into VBA..
my question is, would it be better to use DCL or VBA if im using ALISP...im
leaning to VBA?

also, isnt the only difference between ALISP and VLISP the editor? to me
there
isnt a whopping difference...some tracing and loading... i may be wrong,
please inform me...
im very new at all the mentioned above (i know enough to maybe make me
dangerous)

3rd question...in pre-6 releases i was able to re-map the F keys (F4 to be
exact) in the .mns
files....now with the CUI stuff i cant seem to re-program them, even tho it
says you can...
anybody know how? Also when defining a new command it defaults the command
to the ADT(acad)
cui, not the enterprise or partial cui...anybody know how to make it define
it in the partial CUI?

enough i guess..
ccastelein

"Paul Richardson" wrote in message
news:4854659@discussion.autodesk.com...
>Naw, I normally come across abrasive as it and I like to keep the few
>"acquaintances" that I have on good terms 😃

Consider me one of them. But feel free to place me when need be..
Don't mind my due, if I learn something.

Thanks
Paul
"Mike Tuersley" wrote in message
news:4854624@discussion.autodesk.com...
> I usually get on people for being as sloppy,
> a little more of a butt kicking wouldn't have hurt...;)
Naw, I normally come across abrasive as it and I like to keep the few
"acquaintances" that I have on good terms 😃

-- Mike
___________________________
Mike Tuersley
___________________________
the trick is to realize that there is no spoon...

Re: Getting started with Dot Net

Anonymous — Wed, 25 May 2005 01:14:58 GMT

"Mike Tuersley" wrote

>> Having started over a decade ago with LISP, I'd agree
>> with your case *if* you said AutoLISP. However you
>> started VLISP which is ridiculous. VLISP is a "wrapper"
>> to mimic vba so you might as well just learn vba.

That's not a fair statement at all. If you really believe
that, you don't know very much about Visual LISP.

For simple scripting of a series of AutoCAD commands
using parameters derived from some calculations, LISP
is still the undisputed champ. Two or three lines of
LISP that computes some values and scripts various
AutoCAD commands, is equivalent to pages of VBA code,
complete with hidious kludges and hacks.

Many automation tasks in AutoCAD do not need or
benefit from dialog boxes. If that were not the case,
many more basic AutoCAD commands would be dialog-
based, but the fact is that most of them aren't.

Sorry, but your entire perspective is skewed. We are not
all aspiring developers. Many just need to do a little
scripting and automation of existing AutoCAD commands
to achieve their objectives.

>> Most people learn it faster since its object oriented.

Based on that, I have to wonder if you truly know what
'object oriented' really is, or means.

From software engineering perpspective, VBA is not
object oriented at all. It is a programming langauge
that was designed to easily script things that are by
design, made to *appear* as objects, from the VBA
client's perspective.

In all other ways, there are no such thing as real
objects in VBA. That is, objects that support the
fundamental characteristics of OOP (polymorphism,
inheritence, etc.).

The fact is that the biggest hurdle VBA programmers
have transitioning to an Object-oriented API like .NET,
is that because it is really object oriented, they are
completely lost, confused and bewildered by it, like
fish out of water.

To wit, you yourself were operating under the flawed
presumption that the way to solve the problem of no
pallet activation events was via 'subclassing' (which
is the VB programmer's ultimate hack). When in fact,
the solution was easily arrived at by simply overriding
a virtual protected method in the base class (huh?).

-- Message was edited by: Discussion Admin

Re: Getting started with Dot Net

Anonymous — Wed, 25 May 2005 02:35:46 GMT

I never dissed AutoLISP, Tony. Re-read my post and I specificalIy told Paul
I would agree if he had just said autolisp. My point is vlisp which is
nothing but an attempt to get lispers into vba [solely my opinion].
Everything about it mimics vba and if you can't see that, you haven't done
much of it. Even in your arguments, which I whole heartedly agree with AND
tell others the same, were autolisp based - nothing you wrote disputed
vlisp, unless you consider both one and the same where I see them as
separate or subsets of the same.

VBA is not true object oriented but that is something between programmers
who have knowledge of the differences. To someone who has never programmed,
vba appears to be object oriented...or maybe "intelli-sensed" is a better
term. I've taught lots of people both autolisp and vba and they grasp vba
quicker.

And what's with the personal attack? I never said I was the best nor that I
never needed a hand once in a while. The difference some times between an
"ultimate" hack and a protected workaround is merely a second set of eyes
looking at the problem from a different perspective. For that, I
appreciated your help, I learned something and had a much better approach
then subclassing. If I remember correctly, you weren't keen on helping at
first because you didn't think I could have a valid reason for only
populating on an activation 😉

-- Mike
___________________________
Mike Tuersley
___________________________
the trick is to realize that there is no spoon...

Re: Getting started with Dot Net

Anonymous — Wed, 25 May 2005 04:43:17 GMT

"Mike Tuersley" wrote

>> I never dissed AutoLISP, Tony. Re-read my post and I
>> specificalIy told Paul I would agree if he had just said
>> autolisp.

Visual LISP is what I was referring to.

> My point is vlisp which is nothing but an attempt to get
> lispers into vba [solely my opinion].

I don't know what gives you that opinion. Visual LISP
allows you to access any ActiveX server. What does
VBA have to do specifically with ActiveX ?

Visual LISP came into being because Autodesk was afraid
of the AutoLISP-compatibility in IntelliCAD, which meant
that any AutoLISP program (almost) could be run without
modification on IntelliCAD. So, Visual LISP (intentional or
not) served as a means of 'polluting' the AutoLISP standard
and in the process, introduce incompatibility that would
prevent Visual LISP-dependent applications from running
on IntelliCAD (and several other products that also had
AutoLISP-compatible interpreters). Not to suggest that
it was Autodesk's intent to pollute AutoLISP, but it was
nonetheless, a 'side effect'.

>> Everything about it mimics vba and if you can't see that,
>> you haven't done much of it.

No, you're mistaken. Everything about the VLA- AND VLAX-
aspects of Visual LISP, are simply a product of conforming
to ActiveX Automation specs, as clearly set forth by Microsoft.

The fact that VBA; VB; Delphi; Visual C++; and dozens of
other programming environments also conform to the same
spec is pure coincidence, but that only makes it clear that
you see everything from a VB/VBA-centric point of view,
probably because that language is the extent of your own
programming experience, with the possible exception of LISP.

>> VBA is not true object oriented but that is something
>> between programmers who have knowledge of the
>> differences. To someone who has never programmed,
>> vba appears to be object oriented...

No, it doesn't 'appear to be object oriented', unless one
does not understand what object oriented really is and
means. Object-oriented means much more than objects
with properties, methods, and events.

>> And what's with the personal attack?

No personal attacks. I was using your presumptions about
subclassing as a solution to a problem, to demonstrate that
VB programmers like yourself, are faced with a difficult
transition when it comes to migrating to .NET and its truly
object-oriented programming environment.

That's not a personal attack, and sorry if there was some
collateral damage to your ego, but that wasn't my intent.