topic Re: Need help getting started in .NET Forum

Need help getting started

Anonymous — Fri, 18 Jul 2008 04:08:34 GMT

I am a self made Cad Manager for a small civil engineering firm. I am
startng to see the need to learn programming as I think it would be easier
to make tools to do what the users need rather than train them to do it
themselves.

Currently we are using Land Desktop 2004 and are possibly going to be using
Microstation based products as well. The question is should I learn .net or
vba? As far as I know Land Desktp 2004 was developed prior to .net so I
don't know if .net would benefit us at this time. I also don't know whether
Miscrostatoin supports it in it's current incarnation, although I am not so
concerened about programming for Microstation at this point. We are not
planning to upgrade to newer ACAD versions for the near future. My goal is
to improve our efficiency within a few months by implementing some basic
custom tools. So where should I apply my efforts? If I did learnVBA would it
be of any value when we migrate to .net apps?

TIA

Neil

Re: Need help getting started

Anonymous — Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:30:15 GMT

Ouch what a question...

VBA is easier to learn and limited in power.

VB.Net is harder to learn, and has soooo much power you can force CRASH AutoCAD with all kinds of BAD CODE.

Most simple quick tools can be written with VBA. When moving to VB.Net much of what you learn will be shelved by the learning of a very different larger object model. So, if you want to do it right the first time, take a year to learn VB.Net, if you want to get productive quickly take a few months to learn VBA, then with your new found skills in programming logic, take a half or more of a year to learn VB.Net when you have to go where no VBA has gone before...

jvj

Re: Need help getting started

Anonymous — Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:33:16 GMT

Also, you need to balance upgrading costs carefully. Many of the tools you find useful to write, the rest of the world did too, so Autodesk already wrote them into the newer versions of their software. Upgrades may very well have those tools you've been dying to get your hands on, and I can bet they have been WELL tested as compared to your fresh code already.

Re: Need help getting started

Anonymous — Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:35:20 GMT

Neil,

For your situation (platforms and versions), I recommend that you learn VBA.
It is common to both Land Desktop 2004 and Microstation V8. Though the
object models are quite different, the techniques are similar. If and when
you upgrade, then you may want to consider migration to a .NET language.

Best Regards,
Wayne
www.plotstream.com

"neilw" wrote in message
news:5984801@discussion.autodesk.com...
I am a self made Cad Manager for a small civil engineering firm. I am
startng to see the need to learn programming as I think it would be easier
to make tools to do what the users need rather than train them to do it
themselves.

Currently we are using Land Desktop 2004 and are possibly going to be using
Microstation based products as well. The question is should I learn .net or
vba? As far as I know Land Desktp 2004 was developed prior to .net so I
don't know if .net would benefit us at this time. I also don't know whether
Miscrostatoin supports it in it's current incarnation, although I am not so
concerened about programming for Microstation at this point. We are not
planning to upgrade to newer ACAD versions for the near future. My goal is
to improve our efficiency within a few months by implementing some basic
custom tools. So where should I apply my efforts? If I did learnVBA would it
be of any value when we migrate to .net apps?

TIA

Neil

Re: Need help getting started

Anonymous — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 14:43:19 GMT

Kind of what the others said. It's probably best to start with VBA.

.NET does some have HUGE advantages, so keep that thought in your mind, as
well. It would take longer to get valuable results with, but it is much
easier to do many things with.

I think you'll find the MS a bit lacking when compared to Acad's, as well.

"neilw" wrote in message
news:5984801@discussion.autodesk.com...
I am a self made Cad Manager for a small civil engineering firm. I am
startng to see the need to learn programming as I think it would be easier
to make tools to do what the users need rather than train them to do it
themselves.

Currently we are using Land Desktop 2004 and are possibly going to be using
Microstation based products as well. The question is should I learn .net or
vba? As far as I know Land Desktp 2004 was developed prior to .net so I
don't know if .net would benefit us at this time. I also don't know whether
Miscrostatoin supports it in it's current incarnation, although I am not so
concerened about programming for Microstation at this point. We are not
planning to upgrade to newer ACAD versions for the near future. My goal is
to improve our efficiency within a few months by implementing some basic
custom tools. So where should I apply my efforts? If I did learnVBA would it
be of any value when we migrate to .net apps?

TIA

Neil

Re: Need help getting started

Anonymous — Sun, 20 Jul 2008 01:12:44 GMT

Hi Neil,

If you are looking for short term productivity, you should remember that
you are using a product which has been very stable in its functionality
for many years. The likely productivity gaps have probably been
identified and programmed by third party developers. For example I have
over 100 programs I wrote to enhance Land Desktop and it would be
amazing if some of them did not address issues you will have.

A practical approach to your issues is to observe your users and find
where there are inputting the same data more than once and where they
are performing multi-step processes in the same sequence. These are the
areas where customisation can be economically warranted in the short term

Once you identified where it is possible to make savings, search the web
for possible solutions. You are quite likely find it viable to employ
the skills of one of the third party developers to customise their
software to your specific needs much more economically than doing it
your self.

This would leave you with the opportunity to develop your .NET skills as
there is little doubt that for the long term, .NET is going to be more
valuable than either lisp or VBA. Keep in mind that Land Desktop is
effectively dead and the improved productivity you can get by moving to
Civil 3D will mean your competitors will be able to outperform you and
in a few years threaten the existence of your company.

If you are determined to do your own customisation of Land Desktop 2004,
then look at the scope of what you plan.

For small items, menu adjustments, simple lisp/VBA drafting aids and
script files can be easily created and lead to significant productivity
improvements at minimal cost.

For larger projects and interaction with the Land Desktop data, use VBA
which is by far the best option in terms of the available help files,
sample code and ease of doing it in Land Desktop.

Also read the information by the other posters wrt to Microstation.

Regards

Laurie

neilw wrote:
> I am a self made Cad Manager for a small civil engineering firm. I am
> startng to see the need to learn programming as I think it would be easier
> to make tools to do what the users need rather than train them to do it
> themselves.
>
> Currently we are using Land Desktop 2004 and are possibly going to be using
> Microstation based products as well. The question is should I learn .net or
> vba? As far as I know Land Desktp 2004 was developed prior to .net so I
> don't know if .net would benefit us at this time. I also don't know whether
> Miscrostatoin supports it in it's current incarnation, although I am not so
> concerened about programming for Microstation at this point. We are not
> planning to upgrade to newer ACAD versions for the near future. My goal is
> to improve our efficiency within a few months by implementing some basic
> custom tools. So where should I apply my efforts? If I did learnVBA would it
> be of any value when we migrate to .net apps?
>
> TIA
>
> Neil

Re: Need help getting started

Anonymous — Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:27:48 GMT

Thank you to all the helpful replies. From the replies it seems VBA is the
best option for me. I did download Visual Basic Express and saw briefly it's
cabilities which are impressive. Some of the types of tools I want to make
are pretty basic but hopefully will improve productivity and standards
conformance.

Some of the tools I have in mind are:

Create new Land Desktop Project: Just run the tool, input project name and
description and the files and folders are created in the proper place on the
network, base files are added and renamed to file standards and references
created.

Add project data: Files from external sources are received and user is
prompted for the the type of data (i.e. Aerial imagery, GIS data, Survey
data, etc.) and the tool will place the data in the proper archive folders.

Create Construction Document: User inputs type of document (i.e. Grading
plan, Utility plans, Water & Sewer Plans, etc.) and the proper templates are
added and renamed to file standards and base files referenced).

While we could hire a consultant to develop some of these tools we would end
up dependending on the consultant to make changes as we refine our system so
I think it would be best to learn it on my own.

Upgrading our software would not necessarily address these issues as far as
I know as we would still be using Land Desktop not C3D.

"neilw" wrote in message
news:5984801@discussion.autodesk.com...
I am a self made Cad Manager for a small civil engineering firm. I am
startng to see the need to learn programming as I think it would be easier
to make tools to do what the users need rather than train them to do it
themselves.

Currently we are using Land Desktop 2004 and are possibly going to be using
Microstation based products as well. The question is should I learn .net or
vba? As far as I know Land Desktp 2004 was developed prior to .net so I
don't know if .net would benefit us at this time. I also don't know whether
Miscrostatoin supports it in it's current incarnation, although I am not so
concerened about programming for Microstation at this point. We are not
planning to upgrade to newer ACAD versions for the near future. My goal is
to improve our efficiency within a few months by implementing some basic
custom tools. So where should I apply my efforts? If I did learnVBA would it
be of any value when we migrate to .net apps?

TIA

Neil

Re: Need help getting started

Anonymous — Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:40:06 GMT

Hi Neil,

neilw wrote:
> Thank you to all the helpful replies. From the replies it seems VBA is the
> best option for me. I did download Visual Basic Express and saw briefly it's
> cabilities which are impressive. Some of the types of tools I want to make
> are pretty basic but hopefully will improve productivity and standards
> conformance.
>
> Some of the tools I have in mind are:
>
> Create new Land Desktop Project: Just run the tool, input project name and
> description and the files and folders are created in the proper place on the
> network, base files are added and renamed to file standards and references
> created.

Why bother? That is what the Prototype Project and the Land Desktop
Project system does already.

>
> Add project data: Files from external sources are received and user is
> prompted for the the type of data (i.e. Aerial imagery, GIS data, Survey
> data, etc.) and the tool will place the data in the proper archive folders.

Look at the VBA FileCopy and Kill commands.
>
> Create Construction Document: User inputs type of document (i.e. Grading
> plan, Utility plans, Water & Sewer Plans, etc.) and the proper templates are
> added and renamed to file standards and base files referenced).

Not sure that every project will be so identical is terms of number of
files associated with a given project, that you can make this fool proof
>
> While we could hire a consultant to develop some of these tools we would end
> up dependending on the consultant to make changes as we refine our system so
> I think it would be best to learn it on my own.

That is always dependent on the contract you make with the consultant.
As it is extremely unlikely hat this code will have any commercial value
to anyone outside your organisation, I can't imagine that you wouldn't
find some one who would offer you open source code.
>
> Upgrading our software would not necessarily address these issues as far as
> I know as we would still be using Land Desktop not C3D.

Regards

Laurie

>
>
> "neilw" wrote in message
> news:5984801@discussion.autodesk.com...
> I am a self made Cad Manager for a small civil engineering firm. I am
> startng to see the need to learn programming as I think it would be easier
> to make tools to do what the users need rather than train them to do it
> themselves.
>
> Currently we are using Land Desktop 2004 and are possibly going to be using
> Microstation based products as well. The question is should I learn .net or
> vba? As far as I know Land Desktp 2004 was developed prior to .net so I
> don't know if .net would benefit us at this time. I also don't know whether
> Miscrostatoin supports it in it's current incarnation, although I am not so
> concerened about programming for Microstation at this point. We are not
> planning to upgrade to newer ACAD versions for the near future. My goal is
> to improve our efficiency within a few months by implementing some basic
> custom tools. So where should I apply my efforts? If I did learnVBA would it
> be of any value when we migrate to .net apps?
>
> TIA
>
> Neil

Re: Need help getting started

Anonymous — Mon, 21 Jul 2008 00:54:45 GMT

>Why bother? That is what the Prototype Project and the Land Desktop
>Project system does already.

I have users who don't know how to use Land Desktop but who may need to set
up a project in order to store data files. Rather than have them dump
everything an unstructured folder I'd like to make it easy for anyone to
create a project.

>Look at the VBA FileCopy and Kill commands.

Not sure how those tools are related to the task.

>That is always dependent on the contract you make with the consultant.
>As it is extremely unlikely hat this code will have any commercial value
>to anyone outside your organisation, I can't imagine that you wouldn't
>find some one who would offer you open source code.

I wasn't concerened about copyrights. I was concerened about how we would
mak edits to the programs if none of use knew VBA. Thus the preference to
learn VBA myself vs. hiring it out.

I value your guidance Laurie

"Laurie Comerford" wrote in message
news:5986036@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Neil,

neilw wrote:
> Thank you to all the helpful replies. From the replies it seems VBA is the
> best option for me. I did download Visual Basic Express and saw briefly
> it's
> cabilities which are impressive. Some of the types of tools I want to make
> are pretty basic but hopefully will improve productivity and standards
> conformance.
>
> Some of the tools I have in mind are:
>
> Create new Land Desktop Project: Just run the tool, input project name
> and
> description and the files and folders are created in the proper place on
> the
> network, base files are added and renamed to file standards and references
> created.

Why bother? That is what the Prototype Project and the Land Desktop
Project system does already.

>
> Add project data: Files from external sources are received and user is
> prompted for the the type of data (i.e. Aerial imagery, GIS data, Survey
> data, etc.) and the tool will place the data in the proper archive
> folders.

Look at the VBA FileCopy and Kill commands.
>
> Create Construction Document: User inputs type of document (i.e. Grading
> plan, Utility plans, Water & Sewer Plans, etc.) and the proper templates
> are
> added and renamed to file standards and base files referenced).

Not sure that every project will be so identical is terms of number of
files associated with a given project, that you can make this fool proof
>
> While we could hire a consultant to develop some of these tools we would
> end
> up dependending on the consultant to make changes as we refine our system
> so
> I think it would be best to learn it on my own.

That is always dependent on the contract you make with the consultant.
As it is extremely unlikely hat this code will have any commercial value
to anyone outside your organisation, I can't imagine that you wouldn't
find some one who would offer you open source code.
>
> Upgrading our software would not necessarily address these issues as far
> as
> I know as we would still be using Land Desktop not C3D.

Regards

Laurie

>
>
> "neilw" wrote in message
> news:5984801@discussion.autodesk.com...
> I am a self made Cad Manager for a small civil engineering firm. I am
> startng to see the need to learn programming as I think it would be easier
> to make tools to do what the users need rather than train them to do it
> themselves.
>
> Currently we are using Land Desktop 2004 and are possibly going to be
> using
> Microstation based products as well. The question is should I learn .net
> or
> vba? As far as I know Land Desktp 2004 was developed prior to .net so I
> don't know if .net would benefit us at this time. I also don't know
> whether
> Miscrostatoin supports it in it's current incarnation, although I am not
> so
> concerened about programming for Microstation at this point. We are not
> planning to upgrade to newer ACAD versions for the near future. My goal is
> to improve our efficiency within a few months by implementing some basic
> custom tools. So where should I apply my efforts? If I did learnVBA would
> it
> be of any value when we migrate to .net apps?
>
> TIA
>
> Neil

Re: Need help getting started

Anonymous — Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:13:16 GMT

>> I have users who don't know how to use Land Desktop but who may need to set up a project in order to store data files. Rather than have them dump everything an unstructured folder I'd like to make it easy for anyone to create a project. <<

PMJI but, isn't it a waste of money to pay for a license for Land Desktop that's being used up by someone that doesn't know how to use the software?

--
http://www.caddzone.com

AcadXTabs: MDI Document Tabs for AutoCAD 2009
Supporting AutoCAD 2000 through 2009

http://www.acadxtabs.com

Introducing AcadXTabs 2010:
http://www.caddzone.com/acadxtabs/AcadXTabs2010.htm

Re: Need help getting started

Anonymous — Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:49:47 GMT

To clarify, the users use it for certain tasks but are not skilled in all
it's capbilities. A revolving license handles their needs.

"Tony Tanzillo" wrote in message
news:5986454@discussion.autodesk.com...
>> I have users who don't know how to use Land Desktop but who may need to
>> set up a project in order to store data files. Rather than have them dump
>> everything an unstructured folder I'd like to make it easy for anyone to
>> create a project. <<

PMJI but, isn't it a waste of money to pay for a license for Land Desktop
that's being used up by someone that doesn't know how to use the software?

--
http://www.caddzone.com

AcadXTabs: MDI Document Tabs for AutoCAD 2009
Supporting AutoCAD 2000 through 2009

http://www.acadxtabs.com

Introducing AcadXTabs 2010:
http://www.caddzone.com/acadxtabs/AcadXTabs2010.htm

Re: Need help getting started

Anonymous — Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:33:40 GMT

Training. It makes the 'dumb' smarter, the 'weak' stronger, and the 'inexperienced' wiser.

Sure its crazy to buy a tool nobody knows how to use, but that doesn't stop them from learning. When mastered, that tool becomes much more productive, and that's why we call it the 'learning curve'.

When I first learned LDD I struggled to understand all the features of the program, then a few months later, I was training the managers how they could use it for even more tasks. To get back to topic, Neilw wanted to learn programming so that he could automate tasks, then we asked if he was automating existing tools, which is very possible from where we all sit. Therefore, neilw needs to learn 2 things, the tools at hand for drafting (LDD) and the language for automating (VBsomething). I tell you that if you learn the programming languages, you'll begin to understand the program (AutoCAD with LDD, or even C3D based on Map3D as well) and its benefits and limitations better. Like a back stage pass to the concert.

jvj

Re: Need help getting started

Anonymous — Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:19:59 GMT

Part of the issue is training to use the software and part is training on
document management and standards. The latter is primarily my area of
concern. I could spend hours showing power point presentations or
distributing handouts but I would still be depending on the user's retention
and willingness to refer to the documentation to apply the standards whereas
by placing a tool bar in their workspace I can automatically direct their
steps and even eliminate guesswork in certain cases.

wrote in message news:5987363@discussion.autodesk.com...
Training. It makes the 'dumb' smarter, the 'weak' stronger, and the
'inexperienced' wiser.

Sure its crazy to buy a tool nobody knows how to use, but that doesn't stop
them from learning. When mastered, that tool becomes much more productive,
and that's why we call it the 'learning curve'.

When I first learned LDD I struggled to understand all the features of the
program, then a few months later, I was training the managers how they could
use it for even more tasks. To get back to topic, Neilw wanted to learn
programming so that he could automate tasks, then we asked if he was
automating existing tools, which is very possible from where we all sit.
Therefore, neilw needs to learn 2 things, the tools at hand for drafting
(LDD) and the language for automating (VBsomething). I tell you that if you
learn the programming languages, you'll begin to understand the program
(AutoCAD with LDD, or even C3D based on Map3D as well) and its benefits and
limitations better. Like a back stage pass to the concert.

jvj

Re: Need help getting started

Anonymous — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:52:10 GMT

Yes, you can elminate redundant setup steps with many code routines. That is why many of us have jobs today. The only warning I have is, the user can always find a way around your tools and still 'get it wrong'. So of couse now you have to train them on how to your your tools. Now consider getting a newuser who knows the 'standard' way of doing things, now they have to take the time to plugg into your works of programatic art as well. Not to discourage you, but just be careful with how and why you deviate from the standard out of the box CAD tools.

Re: Need help getting started

Anonymous — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 22:12:51 GMT

A good point Jamie. Customization has downsides. Users become dependent on
it and can be lost if they ever find themselves out of their custom
environment. It adds a layer of management overhead as well. Perhaps it
would be better to invest resources in effective documentation and training
rather than customizing.

wrote in message news:5993276@discussion.autodesk.com...
Yes, you can elminate redundant setup steps with many code routines. That
is why many of us have jobs today. The only warning I have is, the user can
always find a way around your tools and still 'get it wrong'. So of couse
now you have to train them on how to your your tools. Now consider getting
a newuser who knows the 'standard' way of doing things, now they have to
take the time to plugg into your works of programatic art as well. Not to
discourage you, but just be careful with how and why you deviate from the
standard out of the box CAD tools.

Re: Need help getting started

Anonymous — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 02:17:05 GMT

I'm a believe in a mix of both.

Keep in mind, also, learning enough to know what is possible is a huge
benefit that should never be overlooked. Being selective on what to
automate, what not to is certainly good policy. I find that many of the
silly, little tools provide the most bang for the buck, so to speak, but
there are times when a few hours of programming can save days of work.
Sometimes even one-time use tools pay huge dividends.

"neilw" wrote in message
news:5997402@discussion.autodesk.com...
A good point Jamie. Customization has downsides. Users become dependent on
it and can be lost if they ever find themselves out of their custom
environment. It adds a layer of management overhead as well. Perhaps it
would be better to invest resources in effective documentation and training
rather than customizing.

wrote in message news:5993276@discussion.autodesk.com...
Yes, you can elminate redundant setup steps with many code routines. That
is why many of us have jobs today. The only warning I have is, the user can
always find a way around your tools and still 'get it wrong'. So of couse
now you have to train them on how to your your tools. Now consider getting
a newuser who knows the 'standard' way of doing things, now they have to
take the time to plugg into your works of programatic art as well. Not to
discourage you, but just be careful with how and why you deviate from the
standard out of the box CAD tools.