topic Re: Making it "real" in Maya Shading, Lighting and Rendering Forum

Making it "real"

Anonymous — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 13:36:52 GMT

Greetings All!

Okies, I'm working on the little side project...mainly for sh!ts and giggles...and as I'm getting close to animation and rendering time, I'm trying to think ahead here a bit. Please know that I'm not a total newb to Maya...been working in the software for a few years now, but as I'm sure most folks know, it's an on-going learning experience...and in this case, I'm not quite sure what I'm looking for...

In short, I'm doing a little Star Trek animation...for those fellow Trekkies out there, this is TOS, mainly based around the Enterprise. This project really is just for fun and my own learning experience...mostly something to keep my hands (and mind) busy here. To cut to the chase here, as the thread title implies, I could use some tips or advice on how to get the animation to look more "realistic". Here's a couple of quick renders with basic lights (to give ya'll an idea of where I am so far)...

As you can see, I'm most of the way thru the modeling and textures. I still have quite a few things to tweak here and there, but over-all it's coming along pretty nicely (IMO). The problem is that, even though I realize this is fairly simple/basic lighting, it has that cartoon'ish look...and that's what I'm trying to get away from. I know that a great deal of it comes down to lighting and textures, but it REALLY feels like I"m missing something here...although I'm not sure what exactly (Camera? Rendering options? Post effects? Voo-doo??).

Over-all the project/animation is also going to include a second starship, probably a space station and I certainly want some of those classic shots from the original series (the ship orbiting a planet and such). I'm also going to -try- and do one shot similar to the opening of Star Trek: Voyager, where the ship comes up thru planet rings...but that's a different bridge to burn (LOL).

As far as specifics go, I'm working in Maya 2013...mainly because my main system still has XP64 on it (and no, not ready to upgrade this system yet), although I do have another system here with Maya 2014 and Windows 7. Also, unless someone has a pratical suggestion otherwise, the plan (for now) is to render in Maya software. Mental Ray is nice, but the render times can be a serious pain in the wazzoo...the full animation will likely be around 10 minutes when it's finished and since I'm only going to be rendering on 1 or 2 systems here (no farming available), render time is a sizable consideration.

So there we have it...I could use some tips, suggestions and perhaps a push in the right direction on how to get this little project looking a bit more real, if not a tad more professional. Again let me please emphasis that this project really is just for fun, it's a learning experience and the work should only be considered as "fan art"...I just want it to look nice 🙂

Thank you in advance for any assistance...I'm grateful!

Re: Making it "real"

damaggio — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 19:08:12 GMT

It is looking looking nice Kmarkus, it's just a pity you are not using a better rendering engine and better shaders, my quick suggestion for you to add more realism is to set up a main light source coming from somewhere like a sun of course, you need to catch a strong light in one side of the ship and have a weak fill light on the other side, also add some specular maps for the paneling of the Enterprise so it will reflect light in a more natural way.

Let's see how you can make it better in the next render tests....good luck.

Re: Making it "real"

J450NP13 — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 23:41:55 GMT

I use a three light system of spotlights. I create a plain and parent it behind the mental Ray area light ...using a matte finish shader.

If you want it to look good....mental Ray or something like that will do the trick...otherwise...it is what it is.

Final gathering....An AO pass wouldn't hurt....a good normal map and spec map.

Look into MARI....it will blow your mind.

Re: Making it "real"

Anonymous — Fri, 01 Jan 2016 22:49:19 GMT

Ok...round 2...

Sorry it's taken me a couple of days to get back here...for some reason my system doesn't like me having any browswer windows open while I'm working in Maya (me thinks I need to do some house cleaning). In any case, I've been working on the Enterprise model and have tried to apply at least a couple of the suggestions here...

As you can see, compared with the last one, I've added some lights (including some artistic liberties with the running lights, LOL) and a bit of glow on a couple of the light shaders, re-built the primary hull (the saucer section), re-built the bussards (for you non-Trekkies, those red domes on the front of the nacelles), knocked down the reflections a fair bit, did a serious over-haul on the textures in general and in this case, I've added an ambiant occlusion layer. I'm still rendering with Maya Software...I've tried to do some Mental Ray tests, but aside from the HORRIBLE render time, to be totally blunt - the results thus far has just sucked (I may provide a picture later to show folks what's going on there). I have downloaded/installed Pixar's Renderman, however so far that's looking like a HUGE chunck of cheese...not quite sure I'm readdy to tackle the learning curve there yet. I'll probably recut the primary hull support (the "neck" that holds up the saucer section) and I still need to add some lights to the nacelle pylons...may still tweak the textures a bit more.

Over-all, I think it's looking better...compared with my first post at least, but it's still not "right" with what I'm looking to achieve....it's FAR better than the first Enterprise animation I did back in 2012, but something's just off...

Thoughts/opinions?

Thanks

Re: Making it "real"

damaggio — Fri, 01 Jan 2016 23:24:20 GMT

Very nice Kmarkus!...it looks a thousand times better no doubt.

Lighting feels more natural now and the fuselage finish looks more believable as well.

My only note now is the shadow from some light sources falling into the spaceship, seems a bit off, maybe you are using too many lights and remember to keep all quadratic.

I feel that is a bit evenly lit still but job well done..

Re: Making it "real"

Anonymous — Sat, 02 Jan 2016 21:40:40 GMT

Hey D...

Thanks for the kind words. I agree that the new textures have made a rather significant difference. It's almost kind of funny as the original model/ship seen in the original version of the show (I haven't really looked at the remaster versions yet), really had no such textures at all. That one one of the places I chose a bit of artistic license as the idea was really from the re-fit Enterprise as seen in TMP and TWoK...I still remember being stunned when those movies first came out at how much more realistic she looked (although I believe they were still using physical models back in those days).

On the lighting - I am still wrestling with that. In that latest shot, I used 4 lights...really basic. The shadows you point out don't really bother me specifically as the pylons would certainly cast some shadow depending on the light source. I'll probably try and refine the lighting a bit more once I'm closer to animation....as of right now, I have some test shots up on a Star Trek forum for some hard-core Trekkie feedback. After having grown up with Trek, it still amazes me just how totally **** we Trekkies can be when it comes to details, LOL!!!! Yea...they've pointed out several details I had missed or hadn't got to yet 🙂

The one thing that's still bothering me though, it the lack of realism there...something's just not right with how it's rendering. I'm almost tempted to say that it's too nice, but it's hard to put my finger on. If this were a physical model, my first thought would be something with the camera...in TV and movie terms, it's that difference between a truly cinematic look and the early problems they had with "video tape" (although I've read about similar issues when they started using HD and higher). I haven't actually played around with the cameras in Maya yet (regarding this project), so that may be something I take a look at here soon. Again, a bit hard to actually define since I'm still not sure what the problem is....

Re: Making it "real"

J450NP13 — Sat, 02 Jan 2016 21:44:01 GMT

Add some weathering to the texture map.

Post your texture map.

Re: Making it "real"

damaggio — Sat, 02 Jan 2016 22:19:30 GMT

Well I haven't seen those movies in ages, but I think you are getting closer to the look you want but remember that you only gonna go so far to make something photoreal using Maya software, there's just no way around it, it's totally outdated.

Although for your needs right now and rendering times you might have to accept how far you have taken the ship in Maya software, put your final touches and just move on to animation and rendering.

Re: Making it "real"

Anonymous — Sun, 03 Jan 2016 15:32:47 GMT

Yea D...you're probably right. I still have a few more tweaks with the ship itself (my fellow Trekkies over at TrekBBS spotted quite a few little details), but I'm already starting to work out ideas for different shots I'm gonna want. I may have to post a couple of questions over in the Adobe Premiere forum (or After Effects even) and see if they have any suggestions regarding how to deal with some of this in post.

Thanks

Re: Making it "real"

ZEICHEN.TRICK — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 14:12:51 GMT

for realistic rendering

its very important to use..

diffuse textures
specular maps
IBL(image based lightning) + additional light
displacement-/normal maps
ambient occlusion
luminance depth

and render it in different renderlayers and composite it in photoshop so you can change the values of these components

Re: Making it "real"

Anonymous — Sun, 10 Jan 2016 12:43:28 GMT

Thanks Rick...I will look into everything you suggest there. I'm already planning to do the AO passes, however I'll have to do some research on the other items.

That said, I have updated my textures, currently working on the lighting and I should have an animation test posted to Youtube in a day or two.

Again, thank you.

Re: Making it "real"

ZEICHEN.TRICK — Mon, 11 Jan 2016 15:51:35 GMT

if you use mac a good programm to manage maps (diffuse/normal/spec/displacement) from picture files is CRAZY BUMB

...its free

Re: Making it "real"

J450NP13 — Mon, 11 Jan 2016 15:59:25 GMT

I have been using this: http://quixel.se/dev/ndo

It is very good.

Re: Making it "real"

Anonymous — Mon, 11 Jan 2016 21:06:55 GMT

Alrighty...here's an update...

I've been putting a bit of work in over here...a bit of KBO (Keep Buggering On) as it were, but in aprox 2 weeks, I've gone from this...

to this...

I don't think I"m being too full of myself in suggesting that I'm making some good positive progress here...at least as far as the stills are concerned (animation will still be another issue, as render times are still going to be a major factor in my decisions). This latest render is a combination of Maya Software and Mental Ray renders, as well as ambiant occlusion and a depth pass...not to mention new textures and some SERIOUSLY over-hauled geometry since the original.

It's definately better...ok...A LOT better...but still not quite where I want to be yet. It's hard for me to really put into works since I don't know exactly what the problem is, except that it still looks more "CG" than "real". I still need to look into more of Rick's suggestions and I certainly need to mess with the lights a bit more (particularly as I start adding other objects), however comments/suggestions (not involving the use of a Mac) are still most welcomed.

Thanks

p.s. a special shout out to the folks over at the TrekBBS for all their help and suggestions regarding the detail of the ship!)

Re: Making it "real"

damaggio — Mon, 11 Jan 2016 21:52:17 GMT

Nice Kmarkus, getting better and better everytime, nice work...I just can't stiil see a clear Lighting source in your scene, you really need to define the lighting with a nice highlight around the ship and the fill, you are getting that flat look.... if you look at film work one the most pleasing results are from having the sun, or any light source coming from behind, maybe that's waht you should focus next, but in overall you are in the right track.

Re: Making it "real"

ZEICHEN.TRICK — Mon, 11 Jan 2016 22:21:11 GMT

there are some rules to handle lights. Its like a formula which is underlying in the 3 Point lighting system.

I think you have to check that....Maya Tutorial Three Point Lighting for Maya 2011

Re: Making it "real"

ZEICHEN.TRICK — Mon, 11 Jan 2016 22:41:38 GMT

it doesnt mean that you always have to lighting you scenes straight to the three point system but it show you the mechanic behind "build up the scene lights"

cheers

Re: Making it "real"

Anonymous — Tue, 12 Jan 2016 00:17:29 GMT

As a person who's also a photographer, yes, I am quite familiar with the 3 point lighting system. Even if it hadn't of been covered when I took 3D modeling, it's something I have used on occasion for some studio photography work.

And yes, 3 point lighting is (more or less) what I used here. In the recent render for example, the main light is coming from about the direction of the camera, the fill light is camera left (towards the rear end of the ship) and there is a single back light...although I think I may have had it up way to high for that render. The biggest deviation is simply that I actually have 2 primary lights and 2 fill lights...1 each for top and bottom.

That all said, yea...I'm still sure there's something else I'm missing, but I do still need to put some work into the lights as well. The animation is going to be a bit tricky, especially when I add the second ship...but I'm not quite there yet.

Re: Making it "real"

J450NP13 — Tue, 12 Jan 2016 12:23:05 GMT

A light wrap would make it pop. But not sure if you have after effects.

Re: Making it "real"

Anonymous — Wed, 13 Jan 2016 01:35:03 GMT

I do have After Effects, however I have very little experience using it...mostly I use Premiere for my video work and such. That said, I will certainly look into the light wrap thing. Thanks!