topic Re: In-Context / top down modelling WITH configurations in Inventor Forum

In-Context / top down modelling WITH configurations

OliverTilbury — Fri, 03 Nov 2017 16:21:33 GMT

Hi All,

This is my first proper post. I am a new Inventor user coming over from Solidworks and struggling to find a workflow equivalent in Inventor to that which I have used to good effect in Solidworks.

(I have searched all over the internet but found nothing that quite gets me to where I want to be. Perhaps I am just looking for the wrong Inventor terms - I don’t know!)

So the concept:

Is it possibly to have an assembly with components that have features defined in the context of that assembly but where some of those components may also have variations that the assembly can then switch between in order to create assembly variations - all while not breaking any of those in-context references (as they remain constant throughout)?!

Example – a chair:

A specific example (but a good one I hope for this type of work flow) is a chair with three different heights – low, medium, tall (referring in this case to the back heights).

The chair side frames (lower case ‘h’ shape) have these three heights (low, medium, tall).
However the side frames also need holes for the chair rails but these holes need to be driven by a sketch (or other components) in the main assembly.
These holes can be made as required in the chair side frame part referencing the said assembly sketch or other parts.
These holes can then be configured within the side frame part to be suppressed or computed as required for the different chair height (just go with me on that! 😊 )
Back in the assembly, different assembly configurations can now be created – i.e. low chair assembly will use the low chair side frame etc etc.
In use - when the assembly configuration is changed to the ‘medium’ height version, those in-context features remain un altered (as they are used for all side frame versions) - i.e. it is just the chair back height that changes.
This also mean if the size of those rails changes in the main assembly driving sketch / parts, then this change will be reflected across all those side frame versions.
Bonus point / next step (FYI): I would then create a mirror of the side frame part and then configurations within that mirror that look to their relevant counterpart from the main side frame.

In Inventor speak – given my current limited knowledge - this might be “assembly sketch drives features in iPart Master, which then in turn filter down to the iPart member variations. The main assembly can then be turned into an iAssembly to drive which iPart member is used for which assembly configuration”.

I give you my dilemma! 😕

Any advice will be hugely appreciated.

Thank you,

Oliver

Re: In-Context / top down modelling WITH configurations

johnsonshiue — Fri, 03 Nov 2017 22:47:53 GMT

Hi Oliver,

Conceptually, it should be doable via iAssembly, iPart, and iLogic rule in Inventor. However, devil is in detail and talk is cheap. You may want to build a test assembly and try out the solution. Forum experts here should be able to help you further.

Many thanks!

Re: In-Context / top down modelling WITH configurations

OliverTilbury — Sat, 04 Nov 2017 09:49:17 GMT

Ok.
Thank you for your reply.
Bit of encouragement there then.

Hopefully some forum experts can chime in with some insights? Fingers crossed.

Re: In-Context / top down modelling WITH configurations

Thomas_Savage — Sat, 04 Nov 2017 11:31:06 GMT

Hello,

Have you got a model you could send me, of what you would like to apply this to?

Then I could apply iParts, iAssembly, or iLogic to the model. So you can see how it could be done.

Thomas.

Re: In-Context / top down modelling WITH configurations

Anonymous — Sun, 05 Nov 2017 01:52:57 GMT

That would be very interesting to see Thomas if you might already have some examples for the configurations via ipart and I logic could you please download one at your next convenience.

Re: In-Context / top down modelling WITH configurations

Thomas_Savage — Sun, 05 Nov 2017 11:44:01 GMT

Hello @Anonymous,

What version of Inventor have you got?

Thomas.

Re: In-Context / top down modelling WITH configurations

OliverTilbury — Sun, 05 Nov 2017 20:29:46 GMT

Hi All,

Apologies for slow reply on this. Weekend duties beckoned!

Thanks for coming back to me Thomas.

So I have made a simple illustrative part file of the chair side frame and also the startings of an assembly for said chair. Please see attached to this post.

The side frame is placed in the assembly environment, constrained (with an angle to the right plane so the chair is narrower at the back than the front when seen in the top view). A driving sketch is then made in the assembly environment to drive holes for seat rails and a hole for an arm within the side frame part. Btw - this is a VERY simplistic design just to keep things clear!

I then right click on the chair side frame part in the assembly environment and select edit, create 2 new sketches within the part but with the sketch plane for these sketches referenced to the main assembly Right plane. The geometry of these sketches is then made by projecting from the assembly driving sketch* and then I make two cut extrude feature on the side frame part - one for seat rail holes, the other for a hole for an arm.

* For some reason when I project this geometry I get lock constraints on the sketches and then they subsequently fail to update if the assembly driving sketch changes. You'll see when you open the assembly that I have (deliberately) left the holes in the part incorrectly not updated to the driving sketch of the assembly in the hope that you can also enlighten me on why that is happening! 🙂 Perhaps it is expected behaviour, or better hopefully there is an obvious solution? FYI how i did this: after I projected the geometry I toggled 'off' the Construction geometry button under Format in the sketch ribbon to make it usable for the extrude feature and so also didn't have to draw anything additional over the top of the projected geometry. Not sure why this is not working. It's the sort of thing Solidworks does without a fuss. Am I missing something??

Anyway to continue - and assuming that sketch associativity is fixed – what I would like to now do is…

1. Chair side frame part is turned into an iPart with the following configuration:

Config 1 - Low Chair Side Frame @ Height dim = 650mm + All holes

Config 2 - Low Chair Side Frame @ Height dim = 650mm + Seat rail holes only

Config 3 - Medium Chair Side Frame @ Height dim = 850mm + All holes

Config 4 - Medium Chair Side Frame @ Height dim = 850mm + Seat rail holes only

Config 5 - Tall Chair Side Frame @ Height dim = 1050mm + All holes

Config 6 - Tall Chair Side Frame @ Height dim = 1050mm + Seat rail holes only

2. Chair side frame part is now also turned into a mirrored version part, accordingly with mirrored configurations.

3. Original assembly no becomes an iAssembly, the mirrored part (would be called ‘Right hand’ side frame in this case) is also placed in the assembly. The assembly is now set up with the following ‘switch between- able' configuration:

Config 1 – Low chair + Arms (i.e. side frames with all holes)

Config 2 – Low chair + No arms (i.e. side frames with seat rail holes only)

Config 3 – Medium chair + Arms

Config 4 – Medium chair + No arms

Config 5 – Tall chair + Arms

Config 6 – Tall chair + No arms

That's it!

If I can get the solution to all of that I’ll be most impressed!

Thank you,

Oliver

Re: In-Context / top down modelling WITH configurations

Anonymous — Sun, 05 Nov 2017 21:15:10 GMT

Inventor 2018

Re: In-Context / top down modelling WITH configurations

Thomas_Savage — Sun, 05 Nov 2017 22:10:49 GMT

Hello,

What version of Inventor are you using?

I have done a quick iPart with the sizes and suppression you wanted. In Inventor 2018.

You can change sizes, and it supresses the holes, on the correct sizes. In the model browser, expand table, and select size.

I don't want to do anything too complicated to start with. To confuse you.

I think you might find it easier to create it in the part as a multibody, rather than doing it in an assembly.

Then you can place the different configurations in the assembly.

But it depends how complicated is will be to do.

Is this what you wanted? I have not done loads in case I am doing in the wrong version.

Thomas.

Re: In-Context / top down modelling WITH configurations

Thomas_Savage — Sun, 05 Nov 2017 22:12:25 GMT

Hello,

Have you got anything specific you would like to be done in iLogic?

Thomas.

Re: In-Context / top down modelling WITH configurations

OliverTilbury — Mon, 06 Nov 2017 07:42:04 GMT

Hi Thomas,

Yes that part looks set up correctly with the right configurations.

Any ideas on getting the project geometry in the part extrude-cut sketches to update when the assembly sketch changes though?

"I think you might find it easier to create it in the part as a multibody, rather than doing it in an assembly."

... Yes I was thinking to do this already, i.e. a mirror feature within the part that can then be suppressed or un-suppressed in the iPart table. (Although better to make the mirror plane the Right hand plane in order to stays in the centre of the frame. Will help when placing in the assembly of course.)

So next things is to fix that in-context sketch relation updating and then build the iAssembly*?

*Looking to maintain access to all the part features even when changing iPart member when swapping between the different assembly configurations - Assuming that the software allows for that behaviour. I think that must need to happen in order to maintain all in-context relationships (i.e. in the assembly if side frames change from low with all holes to medium with all holes, the holes sketches in the part will still be present in the medium frame and so maintain all the references to the assembly driving sketch).

Thank you,

Oliver

I'm using Inventor 2018 btw

Re: In-Context / top down modelling WITH configurations

Thomas_Savage — Mon, 06 Nov 2017 08:15:48 GMT

Hello,

Glad the part looks set up correctly.

What sketches are you on about? Sketch 1 in Assembly?

It would of been easier to create the sketches in the part.

If you create the sketch correctly it will always keep the same references in whatever iPart you place.

If you do features in the part you will have access to them all in the iPart box, to change sizes, or supress.

Thomas.

Re: In-Context / top down modelling WITH configurations

OliverTilbury — Mon, 06 Nov 2017 08:58:56 GMT

Hi,

Yes I am talking about Sketch 1 in the assembly.

Of course I could create the sketches in the part but I'm trying to illustrate a certain workflow to ascertain if it is possible to drive features / feature sketches at the part level but which are driven / refenced to other parts or sketches in an assembly AND... at the same time have it so that that that part can also be changed from one of its configurations to another.

This is possible in Solidworks. I.e. even if you change the chair side frame from low to tall in the assembly (through iAssembly / assembly configuration) then when you right click and edit the part in the assembly you still have access to the full part feature tree no matter what configuration of the part is currently loaded into the assembly.

This means if you set up a reference from the assembly to the chair side frame part when loaded into the assembly as config 1, the refences remain un-brocken even when you change the chair side frame loaded in the assembly to config 2 as (in this case) the sketch in the part that is looking at the assembly remains unchanged and visable in the part in the assembly no matter what part config is loaded.

Make sense?! 😕

Re: In-Context / top down modelling WITH configurations

OliverTilbury — Mon, 06 Nov 2017 09:15:23 GMT

Or put another way...

One workaround to this I am currently using is to:
- create the part
- insert in assembly
- edit part within assembly with any in-context references from the assembly as required.
- Open the part and turn the part into an iPart - changing dimensions and suppressing features as required.

Now question... back in the assembly, how can I turn the assembly into an iAssembly and access the part iMembers in the iAssembly table (bearing in mind that the part in the assembly appears still to be handled like a normal part, not an iPart, and therefore it's iPart configurations / versions appear not to be accessible in the iAssembly table (just suppress or compute).

Does one need to resort to iLogic to change the part depending on the assembly configuration or will that break any of those original in context references? I know nothing as yet about iLogic or what it does.

Thsnk you!

Re: In-Context / top down modelling WITH configurations

Thomas_Savage — Mon, 06 Nov 2017 15:12:38 GMT

Hello,

I am trying to understand what you are doing.

You only have 1 part in that assembly, so to me it means nothing. It would be better if you have the completed model.

Could you do your whole model in the part mode and than attach it?

I will do a quick model of a chair, and apply iLogic to it, to see if it what you wanted to achieve.

Because as your model is not complete, i don't really understand what you want to achieve.

Thomas.

Re: In-Context / top down modelling WITH configurations

OliverTilbury — Mon, 06 Nov 2017 21:24:29 GMT

Perhaps I am asking the wrong questions and can't expect a Solidworks work flow to be transferable to Inventor.

I will try and get a bit more Inventor experience under my belt and then see if that helps.

Thank you for your time.

Re: In-Context / top down modelling WITH configurations

Thomas_Savage — Tue, 07 Nov 2017 08:19:00 GMT

Hello,

I really want to help you. Could you still attach the completed model?

Yes i would learn a bit more on Inventor. Because you will have a different workflow in Inventor.

I feel that what you are trying to achieve in Inventor is simple, but it is confusing because you are trying to explain it like you are doing it in solidworks.

I used Solid works a few years ago, but found Inventor a lot better at being able to change models sizes, ETC.

I found it easier, and you could do much more. I asked on training courses how to do certain things, and Solidworks could not do it.

Whereas iLogic allowed me to do it.

Here are some links to YouTube videos which you will help you get a basic understanding of iParts and iLogic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHolDSVKU8M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLbQh-5KXXc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGx8hXKaYu8&t=324s

Hope these help,

Thomas.

Re: In-Context / top down modelling WITH configurations

OliverTilbury — Tue, 07 Nov 2017 22:49:53 GMT

Hi Thomas,

Thank you for you persistence.

I've just found that when I insert an iPart into an assembly, the level of info in its feature tree appears limited, but as you say I may be thinking about it the wrong way / too much of a Solidworks mindset.

I thinks possibly the best way to get across what I'm talking about is if I make an example assembly in Solidworks (with assembly configurations + parts within that assembly that have in-context references back to the assembly (i.e. part of their shape is informed by the Assembly even though they themselves can also still switch between configurations) and record a walk through of this. Then hopefully the concept will start to come across.

However I have a bit of deadline I'm up against at the mo so think for the minute I will just model my parts in Inventor as stand alone parts and then re -assemble them in an iAssembly to drive the configurations with an iAssembly.

Thank you,

Oliver

Re: In-Context / top down modelling WITH configurations

OliverTilbury — Tue, 07 Nov 2017 22:50:35 GMT

Thanks for the links btw

Re: In-Context / top down modelling WITH configurations

Thomas_Savage — Wed, 08 Nov 2017 07:56:02 GMT

Hello,

What did you want to appear in the tree in the assembly when you was placing the iPart in the assembly? That you found limited.

Yes if you made a part in solidworks i could have a look and try to create it in Inventor.

When i created the iParts file, and attached it for you to see. What else did you want the part to do? That is what i didn't understand.

Did you want to be able to make sketch 1 move when different iPart was placed? Like the arm chair hole move up or down when the iPart placed what a larger part?

Thomas.