topic Re: Bolts in Inventor Forum

Bolts

johan.degreef — Fri, 18 Sep 2020 11:12:31 GMT

We are looking for an easy way to have bolts (with correct size & length), washers, Nuts in our partlists of these skids. As our assemblies are already big, we like to use the size it bring extra to a miniumum. Anyone an idea to accomplish? i am thinking

- virtual comonents

-1 bolt, 1 nut, 1washer, and adapt quantity.

-drawing a simple rod, nut washer assembly to resuse?

-have an ilogic routine

-...

Re: Bolts

mcgyvr — Fri, 18 Sep 2020 12:03:20 GMT

Choice is really yours depending on your specific needs..

Virtual components is the "fastest" solution so long as you don't have any needs to see the actual parts in the assembly (rendering,etc...)

ilogic could be used to prompt/adjust that quantity if you want but its just as easy to go to the bom dialog and edit the quantity there..

Re: Bolts

johan.degreef — Fri, 18 Sep 2020 12:11:16 GMT

How do other people do it. We need hubdreds of bolts, nuts washer to build these skids, but putting them al in the model will even make it more slow.

Re: Bolts

mcgyvr — Fri, 18 Sep 2020 12:19:24 GMT

They use one or all of the methods you described above..

At my company we model/insert/constrain each and every bolt and washer.

Others will just use a virtual component for each and modify the quantity manually..

Others may use the bolted connection functionality in Inventor to place them/create the holes.

Others may use a phantom subassembly containing the bolt/washer/nut stackup as needed.. Setting it phantom will push the individual parts into the top level parts list.

Others may use a single part to represent it and adjust their purchasing accordingly..

There isn't one right way.. There are pro's and cons to each and the choice depends on your specific needs/limitations,etc...

So far from what little you have stated it seems like Virtual Components will be the fastest/effect performance in the least and get the job done. If all you care about is a line item in a parts list then you can't get any easier than a virtual component.

Most if not all will still rely on a manual process of counting or placing or whatever that can be screwed up unless there is some formula that could be applied using ilogic like total number of holes divided by 2 or something..

Re: Bolts

Cadmanto — Fri, 18 Sep 2020 12:21:15 GMT

Large is relative and contingent on the system you have. And is also related to the complexity of your models.

I have a powerful PC I work on with large assemblies. Personally to keep everything parametric, BOM's and such, I keep my hardware in the model so the count is accurate in the BOM.

I also don't typically use the hardware from the CC, and use hardware I have downloaded from McMaster-Carr. This hardware I have specific descriptions and part numbers assigned to.

With all of this said, there are methods of using LOD's to potentially accomplish what you might need. I don't suggest view reps as those do not remove invisible parts from memory. Below are a couple of links in dealing with large assemblies that might help you.

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk021Tzv4o7JGJ1amUp_LAHNVYyBT5Q%3A1600429942981&source=hp&ei=dp9kX7WSOeKMggfuz4e4Cw&q=handling+large+assemblies+with+hardware+in+inventor&oq=handling+large+assemblies+with+hardware+in+inventor&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIICCEQFhAdEB46BQgAELEDOggIABCxAxCDAToCCAA6BAgjECc6BggAEBYQHjoFCCEQoAE6BQghEKsCOgQIIRAKOgUIIRCSA1DB3ElYpNFKYP7XSmgAcAB4AIABY4gBjR6SAQI1MZgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXo&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwi1pfKR0vLrAhVihuAKHe7nAbcQ4dUDCAk&uact=5#kpvalbx=_P6RkX5Ya7K3K0w-FsZPwAg35

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/inventor/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2019/ENU/Inventor-Help/files/GUID-564D4AF1-E566-490F-9491-BAAFD208F1BC-htm.html

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/inventor/troubleshooting/caas/sfdcarticles/sfdcarticles/How-to-optimize-Inventor-for-working-with-large-assemblies.html

Windows 10 x64 -16GB Ram
Intel i7-6700 @ 3.41ghz
nVidia GTS 250 - 1 GB
Inventor Pro 2021

Re: Bolts

johan.degreef — Fri, 18 Sep 2020 12:28:11 GMT

@mcgyvr wrote:

So far from what little you have stated it seems like Virtual Components will be the fastest/effect performance in the least and get the job done. If all you care about is a line item in a parts list then you can't get any easier than a virtual component.

OK, but how do I get the correct bolts lengths and quantities in some kind of automatic way?

Re: Bolts

CGBenner — Fri, 18 Sep 2020 12:47:44 GMT

@johan.degreef

As far as I know there is no automatic way of counting or sizing the bolts. To ensure the lengths are all correct you would either need to use bolted connection on them all, or build some kind of database to keep track of common lengths used in certain configurations. There is no "Easy" button, I'm afraid.

Re: Bolts

johan.degreef — Fri, 18 Sep 2020 12:54:42 GMT

Does there exists such a thing as a virtual PART too? 1 part, but 3 lines in the partlist. Then you could place that virtual part in the content center, and adapt easely, no...?

Re: Bolts

CGBenner — Fri, 18 Sep 2020 13:17:25 GMT

@johan.degreef wrote:

Does there exists such a thing as a virtual PART too? 1 part, but 3 lines in the partlist. Then you could place that virtual part in the content center, and adapt easely, no...?

I'm afraid not. Virtual components are a single BOM line item, and cannot be published to the CC.

Re: Bolts

cadman777 — Fri, 18 Sep 2020 16:18:47 GMT

The easiest and most economical way I found to do this on large models:

1. THE HARD PART is the first step: Count up all bolts by size and length for every connection in the assembly, and write the results on a sheet of paper, or print an ISO view and hand label it.

2. Now the easy part: Make all bolts as iam files w/the correct # of washers and nuts. The iam file Links the Parameters from the bolt so they show up in the BOM and Part Number. Add to this name the # of washers and nuts as text. Example: 3/4" UNC x 3 1/2" Lg HB, FWx2 & HN or 3/4" UNC x 3 1/2" Lg HB, TW, FW & Nylock HN. If the Nut is not standard, that info is part of the name, such as Nylock or Flg (for flanged). If the joint thickness varies up to 1/8", the bolt assembly will be max distance btw bolt head and first washer, and the same assy will be used 1x on each different joint (NOT 1x on Every occurrence of each different joint w/in the 1/8" variable allowance).

3. Use one bolt per discrete bolt size and length. So for railing base plates on channel and beam with same relative joint thickness, there are 2 different bolt assemblies: one has taper washer, the other flat washer.

3. I NEVER use Inventor 'Bolted Connections". It has too many DEFECTS to be reliable. Plus it's a HOG on resources, as well as a GIGANTIC WASTE OF TIME to use.

4. When the whole model is done (all bolts added), make drg views to show each type of connection.

5. Then manually change the QTY in the BOM for each bolt assembly.

Lately I've been trying to figure out a way to do this using iLogic or iAssemblies, but haven't yet arrived at a solution.

But when I have smaller models, all holes get populated, and in the GA drg the LOD omits all fasteners to make the view refresh faster.
Also, there's always separate drgs dedicated to showing Bolts and their locations.

If it was piping like you show, that's much easier, b/c you make a chart that ID's the bolt size and length and associates it w/the pipe flange. Then you can add Balloons to the fastener's Mark No to show the bolt's location.

Cheers ...

Re: Bolts

bradeneuropeArthur — Fri, 18 Sep 2020 16:52:32 GMT

You are planning to use Vault-pro, isn't it?

With items you don't need to model anything and add it to the BOM by creating items.

Regards,

Re: Bolts

cadman777 — Fri, 18 Sep 2020 17:37:04 GMT

Not me. I never installed it. Too many problems and complications.

I do everything using the basic core software.

I'm trying to learn iLogic (and a little VBA) to automate the things I can't do 'out-of-the-box', but it's very difficult at my age to learn this stuff. But at least I'm trying. My hope is to find a way to tap into parts that I click on with the mouse, and use iProperties from those parts to Link to the Fastener iAssembly that attaches to it (like Inventor 'Bolted Connections', but simpler and better). But that's a long term goal. Same with structural connections. I'm trying to figure out a way to make them like "The Steel Detailer" for SW. Apparently it's no longer being developed due to POLITICS. Too bad someone didn't make one like that for Inventor!

All of these PROJECT MANAGEMENT issues are handled in all the structural steel softwares I've seen. I'm just trying to figure out a way to make Inventor like them. Oh boy!

Re: Bolts

mcgyvr — Fri, 18 Sep 2020 18:50:32 GMT

@johan.degreef wrote:

@mcgyvr wrote:

So far from what little you have stated it seems like Virtual Components will be the fastest/effect performance in the least and get the job done. If all you care about is a line item in a parts list then you can't get any easier than a virtual component.

OK, but how do I get the correct bolts lengths and quantities in some kind of automatic way?

Is there a "formula" or "standard" or something that can be applied to your models that could determine bolt length or is it just through manual measurements? If not manual then some soft of code could be written to perform some automagic.. But I suspect there really isn't a way and its all manual/human work.. (Well.. obviously 97% of what humans can do can be coded but what amount of effort/time,etc.. is required to do that)..

Maybe a specific flange part number always gets a specific bolt length.. If so then something can be done programatically..

Re: Bolts

cadman777 — Fri, 18 Sep 2020 23:01:50 GMT

The way structural software does it is through 'connections'. Connections contain all the data: cuts, connecting parts, fasteners and welds. So the software just looks up the connections and knows what's in each connection.

If you can somehow make your flange-to-flange connections intelligent, then you may be able to write some iLogic or VBA to 'poll' those connections, ID the flanges, and then look-up the flange size and hole size and and qty in a table that's prepared for that purpose. Then you can derive the bolt dia and length from that table too, with washers and nuts, and even gaskets. Does Plant 3D do that? I looked at videos of it online last year, and it looked very complicated and totally incompatible w/Inventor, so I didn't waste my time on it. But I wonder how they do it?

That's what I'm trying to figure out how to do w/Inventor for structural connections. The problem I haven't solved yet is finishing the library of parts and connections, b/c there's so many possibilities! It's trial-and-error at this point. But you must have a defined connection type that ID's everything in that connection before you can determine bolt dia and length.

Otherwise, you need to search the whole 3d model for either Holes or Standard Parts (like flanges), and then search the close proximity for the adjoining part, which can then be used to determine how many holes and what size, thru-hole length, etc. for bolts.

You do it either by the piece or by the group. But either way you probably need some kind of look-up table for values.

To complicate matters, if you have equipment that bolts to something that isn't in the 3d model, then you have a thickenss that's not documented in the 3d model that has to be taken into consideration for bolt length.

Re: Bolts

IgorMir — Sat, 19 Sep 2020 03:23:11 GMT

I would use array as much as possible. Create one full connection and than array it.

Cheers,

Igor.

Re: Bolts

johan.degreef — Mon, 21 Sep 2020 09:16:50 GMT

I created a very simple part to put in the content center with different lengths.

In the partlist there will be 1 line:

BOLT M16x80 / 2x NUT M16 / 2x WASHER M16

Workflow:

-measure the distance between faces that needs to be clamped

-measure hole

-choose correct bolt or threaded rod assembly out of CC

I added the part if anyone would prefer this idea.

Re: Bolts

IgorMir — Mon, 21 Sep 2020 10:59:30 GMT

The problem with that is - once you get ready to send a purchase order to the fitting's supplier of yours - you will have to create another spread sheet, itemizing all those parts separately. Or spend a significant time on the phone, explaining to your vendor - how many parts you actually need. And then - get ready to be blamed for the wrong set of parts purchased.

But you might get lucky, of course. And non of the above will ever happen to you. 🙂
Cheers,

Igor.

@johan.degreef wrote:

I created a very simple part to put in the content center with different lengths.

In the partlist there will be 1 line:

BOLT M16x80 / 2x NUT M16 / 2x WASHER M16

Workflow:

-measure the distance between faces that needs to be clamped

-measure hole

-choose correct bolt or threaded rod assembly out of CC

I added the part if anyone would prefer this idea.

Re: Bolts

johan.degreef — Mon, 21 Sep 2020 11:45:26 GMT

Purchaser sits next to me 🙂