topic Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes no longer working? in Fusion Manufacture Forum

Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes no longer working?

cjelley91 — Mon, 17 Aug 2020 11:07:59 GMT

Up to now the "Reorder to minimize tool changes" function has worked flawlessly for multiple setups with different WCS. However today it's not working as expected. Not sure what has changed but even older CAM files that were posted earlier this week using the same post processor won't reorder operations now. I believe I must be overlooking something simple unless something in Fusion has changed recently?

I am running a job with 16 work offsets, 4 operations, 4 parts and the program was running great until I made a little change to the speeds and feeds of one tool now all of a sudden the program is all out of order.

Re: Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes no longer working?

cjelley91 — Wed, 19 Aug 2020 11:36:32 GMT

Anyone from Autodesk care to chime in?

Re: Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes no longer working?

admin — Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:05:27 GMT

I'm having the same issue here. I've just started to work on some older projects after a longer break from Fusion 360. First I had to pay for a subscription because the Fusion Team decided to exclude CAM setups with tool changes from the free version and then was baffeled to learn that when working with patterns in the CAM module, the "minimize tool changes" options doesn't seem to work anymore as it did before - so basically all the work I did in the last two years is mostely useless. This is unacceptable - especially after introducing the new restrictions for the free users! I've basically paid for a feature that is now broken but worked before when it was still free!

So this bug must be fixed asap or I want my money back.

Kind regards

Patrik

Re: Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes no longer working?

fr33l0ad3r — Fri, 27 Nov 2020 11:41:50 GMT

Use NC program. Checkbox in a second tab.

Re: Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes no longer working?

engineguy — Fri, 27 Nov 2020 12:02:40 GMT

@admin

Please calm down, it does work, do as @fr33l0ad3r advises and all will be well, there was posting on the original thread only a few days ago 🙂

Look under the "Operations" tab.

Here again is the Fusion example file that was uploaded before for you to look at and play around with, it is a bit different but not too hard to learn 🙂 🙂

Forgot to mention, when you come to run the simulation/generate code if you click on the "NC Program" that is created then the simulation will run in the order set in the "Operations tab, not the order in the "Browser" in Manufacture, neat 🙂 🙂

Stay Safe

Regards

Rob

Re: Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes no longer working?

admin — Sat, 12 Dec 2020 20:21:15 GMT

Dear engineguy

Thank you for your response and sorry for my late reply. I've already tried "NC Program" but the "Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes" checkbox doesn't do anything as you can see in the attached screenshot. I've marked the different tools in different colours so that it's easier to recognise the pattern.

In previous versions of Fusion 360 it worked flawlessly. Am I still doing something wrong here?

Thanks for your support and kind regards.

Patirk

Re: Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes no longer working?

engineguy — Sat, 12 Dec 2020 21:36:23 GMT

@admin

Looking at your image it appears to be a single Setup, the re-organize doesn`t re-organize tools within a single Setup, to organize within a single setup then you should "drag and drop" your operations to the order you want within that setup in your "Browser" in Manufacture.

If you have multiple Setups then the re-organize will do all operations with say the 8mm tool in all Setups before changing tools.

It does also appear to be very smart and will not use a tool for example to do a finish contour round a pocket if the pocket has not already been machined, this is how it seems to work to me, maybe not perfect but pretty good in my humble opinion 🙂 🙂 🙂

Stay Safe

Regards

Rob

Re: Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes no longer working?

cjelley91 — Fri, 18 Dec 2020 16:13:18 GMT

Any ideas on when you will fix this issue?

Re: Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes no longer working?

RomanCut — Tue, 06 Apr 2021 13:23:37 GMT

Hi @admin ,

I have the same problem despite on 4 setups.

It looks like guys from Autodesk screwed up with this extremely necessary tool and now try to convince us that we are doing something wrong.

It will soon be a year since it stopped work.

Autodesk, please fix the bug.

Re: Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes no longer working?

engineguy — Tue, 06 Apr 2021 14:35:14 GMT

@RomanCut

With respect looking at you image it appears to be working correctly, eg the Yellow areas for the Chamfer tool are for a G55 setup and above them is a G55 Hole, if that is what is to be chamfered then it won`t be done before the hole is created, therefore the software in it`s wisdom has moved the Chamfer to after the Hole creation. If that is the case then it is working correctly!

I can replicate the issue but only if I order my operations wrongly

The above is pure guesswork as you didn`t upload a file for checking and may well be wrong !!!

Re: Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes no longer working?

RomanCut — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 08:37:45 GMT

@engineguy

Thank you for the fast respond.

I attached the file so you can check it.

Before the reordering tool feature was broken ordering for same block for all offsets was approximately next:

1 - rough milling

2 - fine milling

3 - drilling holes

4 - chamfers

5 - threads

Now everything is messed.

This feature worked perfectly some time ago but now it works only for couple of first tools and thats all.

Please look on a google result for Autodesk forum, a lot of people faced with this problem an it is not solved yet.

Re: Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes no longer working?

engineguy — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 12:38:22 GMT

@RomanCut

Apologies for delay, very busy today.

Had a very quick look at your file and on your Chamfers with the 12mm Chamfer tool are correct, eg the 2 chamfers for the 28mm Dia holes in G55 setup can`t be done before the holes are machined so appear after the hole in the list, that is correct, so Fusion has done the right thing and saved you a crash at your machine!! Pretty smart !!

If it had grouped ALL the operations using that tool then you would be trying to chamfer edges in solid material !!

Same thing for your other splits.

Re: Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes no longer working?

RomanCut — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 14:11:48 GMT

@engineguy

I think you understand me wrong.

I have 4 offsets on one table. G54, G55, G56, G57. I try to generate common program for all of them.

It is obvious that when I use feature "reorder tools to minimize tool changes " it should call each tool ONCE per cycle which includes ALL four offsets. And Fusion did so before you updated tool library.

Now it calls one tool per one offset and doesnt reorder tools. Not very smart, right? It takes for me couple of additional hours to reorder operations manually to call one tool once per cycle.

It did work great before you changed the tool library.

Please let me know if you need additional information. I would be happy to provide it. This bug must be fixed.

Re: Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes no longer working?

engineguy — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 15:30:41 GMT

@RomanCut

Yes, I do understand what you are saying but it is wrong to use the 12mm Chamfer on all Work offsets before other operations are performed.

Do you not see that running the 12mm Chamfer tool on all your G54, G55, G56, G57 offsets before the 28mm holes have been drilled would be catastrophic ??

Fusion can and does only as much as it able based on the users constraints within the order of operations already set, you have said that you have to spend time re-ordering operations, that is exactly my point, sometimes you do need to give it some Help.

As for your Work offsets, although you set them wrong Fusion did correct the error itself, ie the first Work Offset G54 is WCS #1 not #0 as you set so Fusion put it right for you.

As far as I am concerned it has always worked OK, the way it should be used has changed that`s for sure and it took me some time to figure it out but is is fine now, I just do things differently now.

Re: Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes no longer working?

Anonymous — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 17:09:45 GMT

@RomanCut

@RomanCut wrote:
@engineguy

I think you understand me wrong.
I have 4 offsets on one table. G54, G55, G56, G57. I try to generate common program for all of them.
It is obvious that when I use feature "reorder tools to minimize tool changes " it should call each tool ONCE per cycle which includes ALL four offsets. And Fusion did so before you updated tool library.

Now it calls one tool per one offset and doesnt reorder tools. Not very smart, right? It takes for me couple of additional hours to reorder operations manually to call one tool once per cycle.

It did work great before you changed the tool library.

Please let me know if you need additional information. I would be happy to provide it. This bug must be fixed.

Having this exact same problem.

Re: Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes no longer working?

RomanCut — Thu, 08 Apr 2021 11:50:43 GMT

@engineguy

@Anonymous

I removed all chamfers and renamed wcs so this can not be an argument anymore. (new file is attached)

The problem didnt disappear. I made couple of screenshots, maybe with them it will be more clear what I mean.

Pic.1 is an operation list without reordering, lets use it for reference.

If you look at Pic.2 you should see that after I turned reordering feature on Fusion grouped operations with tool #1 and #4, that is right!!! But it didnt group operations with tool #19 and also with tool #10, why?

I also attach Pic.3 where you can see how operations can be grouped to call each tool only once and reduce the cycle time. It wasnt generated by Fusion 360 , I made it in Paint.

Less than one year ago Fusion generated operation list like on a Pic. 3, now it generates like on a Pic. 2. You think this is ok?

Re: Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes no longer working?

engineguy — Thu, 08 Apr 2021 19:02:36 GMT

@RomanCut

Aplogies for delay responding.

I can not see anyway that I can convince you that you are using the software incorrectly, in your example file you are machining all 6 sides of the part which cannot be done in reality, there are occasions where a certain operation has to be carried out before certain others can be done and Fusion knows this and sets things out as best it can accordingly.

The user is supposed to use the NC Program system to select operations from whichever setup they desire in order to have operations carried out in the correct order, not as they may appear in the Browser. Your example file does not appear to have any such selections done.

Ideally on that example file the whole of the Browser Tree would be broken down into possibly 3 or even 4 NC Programs in order to achieve the correct "Groupings" for the machine (3 Axis??) to cut correctly without crashes, the first Setup would be as per the Browser tree so in the NC Program the operations you would only select that Setup as per the image below, there is no point selecting the other 3 setups because you are not able to machine them.

If you are using a Horizontal Mill with a B axis then you could machine 5 of the 6 sides, then you would need to "check/uncheck" operations to get them machined correctly in order, your example file would require this from you.

As you can see in the second image below the grouping is again correct, you have #T1 doing both the Face and 2 Chamfer passes, Fusion has grouped them together correctly.

Here is a link where you will see that it does say the user is supposed to check/uncheck operations as required to create an NC Program.

https://help.autodesk.com/view/fusion360/ENU/?guid=MFG-POST-PROCESS-NC-PROGRAM

Please Note, Paragraph 6 in particular

Re: Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes no longer working?

RomanCut — Fri, 09 Apr 2021 08:07:21 GMT

@engineguy

You cannot convince me that it works ok because I think you dont have understanding how it works.

You tell me that milling part from the file I sent you can not be milled in one cycle on a 3-axis machine with 4 offsets. This is surprise for me because I produced parts this way for many years.

I kindly ask you to invite somebody else from support to this conversation. Somebody who worked, works or familiar with milling. Somebody who can read my messages and messages of other users on this forum and see the bug.

You think that all people who reported that "reorder tools to minimize tool changes" doesnt work, did it for fun?

If you dont see the problem it doesnt mean that it doesnt exist.

Re: Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes no longer working?

engineguy — Fri, 09 Apr 2021 14:00:57 GMT

@RomanCut

Works fine here, in the image below is how I would expect the part to be made on a 3 Axis Vertical Machine Centre.

It is only a "representation" of how it would be on the bed of the mill, no vises or fixtures have been added for speed of creation. Was done using 3 Setups. (I hadn`t seen that!!)

I am afraid that I cannot take any credit for this as I gave it to a 19 year old Trainee who has only 7 months experience on the Shop floor and on the software, not great but the youngster did reasonably well considering!!

First image is of what we would consider a practical layout, second image is of the NC Program with no re-ordering and the third image is of the NC Program with the re-ordering enabled, looks OK to me, no operations were moved in the Browser tree, just selected on each part as per tool. This is working as I would expect with this type of layout on a 3 Axis VMC, like you I have done this type of machhining many, many times, this system and the software works for me so I am happy with it 🙂

As you can see all the #T19 tools are grouped together, all the #T1 tools the same and the rest seem OK as well.

My apologies if this is not what you are asking for, it is the youngsters "best guess" as she put it 🙂

Re: Reorder to Minimize Tool Changes no longer working?

RomanCut — Fri, 09 Apr 2021 16:27:06 GMT

@engineguy

Your trainee guessed right. Pretty good for 7 months of experience!!

She deleted G57 but it doesnt really matter.

My table looks approximately like this:

From pictures you sent me I see that reordering works fine for you. The question is why it does not work for me?

I tried to install Fusion on two computers and on both reordering does not work properly.