topic Re: Global Tool Library & Local Tool Library do not sync... in Fusion Manufacture Forum

Global Tool Library & Local Tool Library do not sync...

vandyckaj — Fri, 16 Oct 2020 23:03:50 GMT

Alright, so I was not able to find much regarding this topic anywhere in the forums. To be honest, I am surprised it's not being talked about more. I contacted Autodesk support and was not able to avail of much information.

Here is my issue. The tool library in the CAM side of the program has multiple levels all of which do not talk to or sync up with one another.

So, let's talk through it. On the global level, wether it be a local library you create yourself or one you import from helical, harvey, etc... you can establish a tool catalog with all the tools, all the geometry feeds and speeds, tool number, offsets the works. AWESOME! Alright, so I go through my tool catalog in the shop, create all my tools, get all that info in there and I am ready to start programming.

I go into the program, create a tool path, go to my global library and grab a tool, fantastic it's all there. I can even grab a pre done recipe for feeds and speeds. AMAZING! But here is where the confusion and trouble begin.

Let's say I now create another operation for this setup. I go back to the global library grab the same tool and... Ohh wait now I have two of the same exact tools duplicated on my local document level... It's the same tool. Why? So now if I want to change an offset or a tool number for this particular setup, I have to update them individually.

There is a work around for this however. Simply once you bring a global tool into the local document level, if you select the tool from the local document tool library for the second operation, now you avoid the duplicate tool issue.

But the part that is really killing me. Once you bring in that tool from the global library to the local level, you loose any relationship between the two. Meaning, if I have a change to that tool, insert geometry, stick out length, etc... If I update the global tool, none of my documents will update.

So I would have to go back in to every document where that tool is used, and one by one replace them all with the new modified version of the tool. EVERY TIME I MAKE A CHANGE!

Not to mention, since it completely looses the link back to the global tool library, if I make a change on the local level, or add additional recipes for feeds and speeds etc, it does not sync back up. Meaning I could theoretically end up with infinite copies of the same tool, all of which could be slightly different.

It's massively confusing, cluttered and in my opinion is setup in a way that can only lead to chaos and confusion. I'm not sure I understand the logic behind why it is structured as it is, but I am hoping either I drastically misunderstand how to create the proper workflow to use it, someone has a workaround for me, or hopefully someone sees this and decides to make a change for the better.

Ideally it would be setup as follows. Global tool library for all your tools you create. Master copy. Every tool you create or import resides here. You can still create multiple global libraries for organization purposes. When you bring down a tool into a document though, it maintains its relationship back to what global library it came from. Meaning all the data syncs both down and up. I change something in the global, my local document updates, I change something local, my global updates. If I go grab the same tool for my local document from the global, I don't end up with a copy anymore cause it is the same tool. There is however one exception to the global sync rule with tool numbers and offset numbers that should be provided. So to facilitate that you still keep the local document level library for 2 reasons. One, it is nice to reference what tools you're using in that document, and if you are reusing tools over and over, it's quicker to grab from that short list than go searching over and over. Two, is the exception I mentioned. You create an option to turn on and off global syncing for tool numbers and offsets. Both get their own switch.

The reason that is important is there are 3 main ways I have seen machines setup in various shops and those switches would cover all 3. And by doing so, if you have more tools than you do pockets in your machine, it would allow you to keep the benefits of global syncing but maintain the ability on the local level to renumber the tools or tools and offsets, whatever your preference, to put the tools in order for a particular job within a document, without messing up other documents where you have done the same. Very important for people with umbrella style tool changers where the next tool cannot be staged in advance, or people with small magazines who are often swapping in tools in or out for various jobs.

But this exception also allows for people like me who are comfortable with having different offset numbers from my tool numbers to keep all my tool touch off data in my machine unaltered, keep the offset number always constant and globally synced, but keep rearranging tool numbers so the tools in my umbrella holder are best arranged for efficiency on each particular job.

To me, what I am describing would in my opinion result in the best tool library I have used in a CAM program. And I am an ex Mastercam user. It would be logical, organized, allow you to create an actual workflow that makes sense, and take away the potential for the induction of human error, multiple duplicates of the same tool, and ultimately prevent costly mistakes or even crashes. And it's really only a few minor tweaks to make it happen. I don't know... Am I crazy? Does this make sense? Anyone else feel the same way? Or am I just missing the logic on this completely. Please Help!

Re: Global Tool Library & Local Tool Library do not sync...

vandyckaj — Sat, 17 Oct 2020 13:33:07 GMT

@seth.madore

Re: Global Tool Library & Local Tool Library do not sync...

jeff.pek — Sat, 17 Oct 2020 14:01:08 GMT

Hi -

You make lots of very reasonable points, and have good ideas. Thank you for taking the time to write!

We've talked about having this sort of connection for a long time, but honestly, it just never moved near the top of the priority list to take it on. There's a lot of details involved in trying to handle out-of-date notification to manage the sort of synchronization you're talking about. When the libraries are stored as local files, identifying changes, etc. is not trivial.

I think your point about creating a new document tool even if you select the identical tool from the global library is quite reasonable, and likely doable.

We will take your suggestions, and hopefully can move in the direction that you're suggesting as we move the tool library forward.

Jeff

Re: Global Tool Library & Local Tool Library do not sync...

vandyckaj — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 17:33:27 GMT

Thanks for the reply! I do hope you take the suggestions into consideration and that they move up the list in terms of priorities. I'm sure there are many things that compete for resources when it comes to picking improvements.

My thoughts on this one though is it seems to be a rather basic function in nature, maybe not execution but is for sure something that I think stands out glaringly for power users of the CAM side. Especially if your working with this program in a large machine shop with multiple programmers etc...

When you are going up with competing against the likes of mastercam, etc... these small details make all the difference! All the best, Alex

Re: Global Tool Library & Local Tool Library do not sync...

rhdfmail — Wed, 21 Oct 2020 09:21:59 GMT

With the introduction of presets for feeds/speeds this became even more needed.

When do you add them to your tools? My guess is when you create a new tool and maybe when you edit a old one.
BUT I there is no time (at least for me) for creating more than that one you need for the current job.

Where do yo edit/add them? probably inside your program because you realize that the values you guestimated was suboptimal. Do you remember to copy back that tool into the master-library? Nope

IF syncing between programs and master-library becomes reality there also have to be a option to NOT sync a tool-edit back to master..

There are cases when you pick a tool from the library and for that specific job where you need to change the stickout and adjust feeds/speeds to handle that extra length, but you dont want to have that in every program that previously used that tool.

You also doesnt want a edit in the master to automagicly override the stickout or holder etc in every program.
What if you in one project had to rig the tool in a long shrink-holder instead of the ER-40 it has in the master.
If the original holder/stickout from master syncs to all programs next time you edit the master or triggers a "edit" by edit the tool in another program there is big changes for "interesting" mistakes

Of course, the soulution for odd edits like that could be to create a "non syncable clone" of your tool in the program that only exists there (just like it is now) or the ability to select what parameters is to be synced back

Re: Global Tool Library & Local Tool Library do not sync...

Chris.Brough — Tue, 27 Oct 2020 09:45:26 GMT

We would also love to see tool library syncing implemented. @vandyckaj thank you for posting this!

Re: Global Tool Library & Local Tool Library do not sync...

BigDogCNC1 — Thu, 18 Mar 2021 18:54:06 GMT

Also looking for this functionality. I've been measuring and inputting all my tools into Fusion, just to have to go back and figure out which copy actually has the correct data.

Re: Global Tool Library & Local Tool Library do not sync...

mattdlr89 — Thu, 18 Mar 2021 22:25:47 GMT

I do think the default should be how it is now. It makes sense to me that once you pick a tool a link between master library and document library is not active as you may want to make adjustments unique to that job. However there should be a nice simple button that allows me to push those changes back from the document to the cloud library very easily.

Also the problem with duplicating tools is a right pain within the document is a right pain! I hope that gets fixed soon, I've experienced it when selecting between cloud, library, different documents and templates. I am referencing the same tool but fusion makes duplicates within my document. I think this is known by the Fusion team so hopefully it will be fixed soon.

Re: Global Tool Library & Local Tool Library do not sync...

Sq_14 — Fri, 19 Mar 2021 07:45:35 GMT

.... However there should be a nice simple button that allows me to push those changes back from the document to the cloud library very easily. ....

+1 - This would be MY best practice

Even if you use a tool "inherited" from a global library, there are numerous occassion which would potentially damage the tool used in another job if changes are made global automatically. You change some parameters in speeds and feeds to perform a specific operation and those will suit this operations, but since these are not standard you don't want them to be populated into your global space.

If you are happy with your settings and want to make them global, you could either have them populated by using a button, or, what i do now, drag'n'drop or copy and paste the tool from the local file to your global source and delete the former standard tool. This does not update tool information in all the other documents automatically, but hey, this is CNC, and if you command your machine to do things it has done some time ago, you better make sure you have looked through crash- or damage related options, in which i categorize tool information as well as speeds and feeds before using the cyle start button.

I realize, for some cases, automatic update would be a much easier option, but I for one think, Murphy's always lurking just around the corner and it's better to be safe than sorry, better use some lifetime to check things before hand than create potentially "automatic" damage.

Re: Global Tool Library & Local Tool Library do not sync...

rhdfmail — Fri, 19 Mar 2021 13:50:37 GMT

In our case we have a set of tools that we consider as "standard" This means that they are always rigged, either in the machine or standby in a rack next to it. For those we have decided a optimal stickout, and length of the holder.
If they don't fit a job, we rig a completely different tool just for that job Many times its the same brand/model of endmill so we copy the standard one and do the edits required.

But there is always cases where we vant to add a new preset to a tool in our standard-library.
In those cases it would be nice to be able to push that back to the master library when satisfied with the settings instead of copy the tool, paste it and then figure out wich "tool 42" I shall delete

Re: Global Tool Library & Local Tool Library do not sync...

Sq_14 — Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:22:00 GMT

@rhdfmail wrote:
But there is always cases where we vant to add a new preset to a tool in our standard-library.
In those cases it would be nice to be able to push that back to the master library when satisfied with the settings instead of copy the tool, paste it and then figure out wich "tool 42" I shall delete

Well, as a hint for a bit more uniqueness, i tend to add a date like "20210319" in a comment field .... Probably won't do you much good after some time, as you have to know the most recent update date for the tool data, but at least it helps to distict which tool 42 is to delete.

I use this "timestamp" all the time, not only tools, also .nc programs, sometimes even setups when i'm trying different approaches.

on a side note ... or ... maybe you could ask "Deep Thought" which "42" would be the right one 😂

Re: Global Tool Library & Local Tool Library do not sync...

rhdfmail — Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:36:27 GMT

42 wasn't choosen randomly 😉