topic Re: How to create a master document with multiple schematics and external off-the-shelf components connected. in Fusion Electronics Forum

How to create a master document with multiple schematics and external off-the-shelf components connected.

waltercFKW73 — Thu, 24 Aug 2023 18:30:58 GMT

I have a prototype system with several individual PCBs and off-the-shelf sensors, valves, pumps, and motors that it controls and reads input from. I need to create a master drawing that shows the whole system connected. I do not want to make a copy of the schematics but prefer to 'embed' or 'link' to their original drawings/files so everything stays up to date. When I insert an 'off board' component, like a sensor, into a schematic, Fusion wants me to put it on the PCB, too. I don't want to do that.

What's the best way to do this?

(Note: In a way, this is similar to how Inventory builds Parts that are then assembled into Assemblies. When the part changes, the assembly is updated. )

Re: How to create a master document with multiple schematics and external off-the-shelf components connected.

jorge_garcia — Fri, 25 Aug 2023 19:21:50 GMT

Hello @waltercFKW73,

I hope you're doing well. This sounds like you want to make a wiring diagram.

Fusion Electronics is really setup for consumer product design, designing the PCBs that go within a product. With that said it's possible to do a wiring diagram within the Electronics environment but really AutoCAD Electrical is better suited for wiring diagrams.

If you want to do it within Fusion Electronics, then you'll need to make a library and create representations of the pumps, valves etc. Then you can add those to the schematic and interconnect them.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,

Re: How to create a master document with multiple schematics and external off-the-shelf components connected.

waltercFKW73 — Fri, 25 Aug 2023 20:11:48 GMT

You could think of our system as if it was a Keurig coffee maker. It's not,
but in some ways, it is similar - PCB, switches, indicators, pumps,
temperature sensors, etc., that are not on the PCB but are connected to
it.

So, Fusion cannot make the type of overall system diagrams for a consumer
product like this?

Further, having all the components connected would facilitate using
simulation tools to confirm everything works properly. But, that's beyond
the minimum capability I am looking for.

Re: How to create a master document with multiple schematics and external off-the-shelf components connected.

jorge_garcia — Mon, 28 Aug 2023 20:54:28 GMT

Hi @waltercFKW73,

I hope you're doing well. Thanks for the clarification. This is possible to do you just have to draw symbols for them. If you don't intend for there to be footprints for some components because the parts are off the board you can use an attribute _EXTERNAL_ to let Electronics know that the component is off the board

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,

Re: How to create a master document with multiple schematics and external off-the-shelf components connected.

waltercFKW73 — Mon, 28 Aug 2023 20:58:48 GMT

Is the _EXTERNAL attribute a feature of Autodesk Electrical or Fusion 360,
or maybe both?

Walter

Re: How to create a master document with multiple schematics and external off-the-shelf components connected.

jorge_garcia — Tue, 29 Aug 2023 16:54:11 GMT

Hello @waltercFKW73,

This applies only to Fusion 360, after you clarified with the coffee maker example it became clear that this was something you could show in Fusion 360.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,

Re: How to create a master document with multiple schematics and external off-the-shelf components connected.

waltercFKW73 — Tue, 29 Aug 2023 21:47:48 GMT

Thanks! Can you recommend any training that would illustrate further how
to do this?

Re: How to create a master document with multiple schematics and external off-the-shelf components connected.

jorge_garcia — Wed, 30 Aug 2023 20:07:15 GMT

Hi @waltercFKW73,

I hope you're doing well. The key here is in making the symbols and library components once you have that you just connect them on a schematic.

See the tutorials here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNIEXCimRSg&list=PLmA_xUT-8UlKE-U-eEqrkNEI7rd1fUnLY

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,

Re: How to create a master document with multiple schematics and external off-the-shelf components connected.

waltercFKW73 — Thu, 31 Aug 2023 14:39:07 GMT

Thanks. I took a brief look at the first video. This will be useful to
watch.

So, if I understand the solution you are recommending, I need to make a
part from each of my schematics and will include all the 'external'
connection points (as if I'm putting the pins of an IC on the part, which
of course, internally has a schematic).

Then, either obtain or make parts for all the external components like the
motors, switches, sensors, etc.

Once I have all the parts available, I'll make a new design, bring all
those parts in, and connect them in the new design file, which represents
my overall system.

Is this correct?

I have a few more questions...hopefully, this thread will be helpful to
others.

If so, then if I make Part A from my schematic and use it in the system
design file, if Part A's original schematic is updated internally, will the
updates in Part A's schematic file 'flow' into the overall system schematic
automatically?

And, when I look at the overall system schematic will it show, wherever
Part A is placed, the entire schematic of Part A? This is important
because it will show the full system schematic.

Thanks so much for your help!

Re: How to create a master document with multiple schematics and external off-the-shelf components connected.

jorge_garcia — Thu, 31 Aug 2023 19:58:45 GMT

Hi @waltercFKW73,

I hope you're doing well. Check the first 10s of this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxpg_Ar_o00&t=0s

The schematic sheet that I show is that what you are going for?

If it is then you are correct. Changes in the original main schematic will not propagate to the system overview since in the system overview you are using component to represent the original schematic and not the schematic itself.

Another way to achieve something similar to what's shown in the video is using modules. You create the blocks and define the ins and outs, then if you wish you can fill in the internals of the blocks or leave them as is to create documentation.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,

Re: How to create a master document with multiple schematics and external off-the-shelf components connected.

waltercFKW73 — Fri, 08 Sep 2023 20:37:25 GMT

Jorge,

I FINALLY had time to review this video. I need to review the others still.

One thing I noticed in this video though is that there are multiple schematic sheets in the design and it appears there is just one board design. It looks like all the schematics from the sheets are placed on the board for layout. That's good to know about. I've not done this because my designs haven't been quite that complex. BUT, it still doesn't really solve my problem because a part of my overall circuit is 'off the board'. For instance, we have a sensor that has five components that are in a housing off the PCB. A cable connects them to the PCB and they are integral to the overall circuit. But don't belong on the PCB. If the sensor was on a second sheet and connected to the main schematic on a primary sheet, can the components on the second sheet be excluded from the PCB layout somehow? This would take care of my need.

Re: How to create a master document with multiple schematics and external off-the-shelf components connected.

jorge_garcia — Mon, 11 Sep 2023 22:01:09 GMT

Hi @waltercFKW73,

I hope you're doing well. The _EXTERNAL_ attribute that I mentioned above would take care of this need. Any components with that attribute will not show up on the layout because they will not have footprints.

Best Regards,

Re: How to create a master document with multiple schematics and external off-the-shelf components connected.

waltercFKW73 — Tue, 12 Sep 2023 14:52:13 GMT

Jorge,

Thanks for being so patient and helpful. So, how do I add this attribute. I tried this...

1. Downloaded the symbol from Ultralibrarian.

2. Placed it in my schematic.

3. Right clicked and chose Attributes and then clicked New and added _EXTERNAL_. I did not know what value to assign so I entered 1.

It shows up on the PCB layout.

Please let me know how I should do this to keep it from showing up on the layout.

Re: How to create a master document with multiple schematics and external off-the-shelf components connected.

jorge_garcia — Tue, 12 Sep 2023 20:07:01 GMT

Hi @waltercFKW73,

I hope you're doing well. Go into the library that contains the part you downloaded from Ultralibrarian. Go into the component, delete the footprint and 3D model from the component. In the component click the attribute command and repeat step 3.

Save the library and in your design, delete the old part and put in the new modified one without the footprint. You'll see that the footprint does not come in on the PCB layout. The key is that you have to make the changes at the library level, not the schematic level.

Best Regards,

Re: How to create a master document with multiple schematics and external off-the-shelf components connected.

waltercFKW73 — Tue, 12 Sep 2023 20:54:15 GMT

That makes a lot of sense! Thanks!

Re: How to create a master document with multiple schematics and external off-the-shelf components connected.

rwn24 — Fri, 07 Feb 2025 19:37:49 GMT

If you don't mind, I'd like to resurrect this thread. I have a socketed part I'd like to include in the schematic. However, when I create the component in my library and assign the _EXTERNAL_ attribute, it is still showing up in my PCB layout, (the component still has a footprint). If I delete the footprint. I get an error if I try to add the component to my schematic. What am I missing?

Re: How to create a master document with multiple schematics and external off-the-shelf components connected.

jorge_garcia — Fri, 07 Feb 2025 20:05:17 GMT

Hi @rwn24 ,

I hope you're doing well. Remember that the idea of the

_EXTERNAL_

attribute is to indicate that a footprint is not necessary. If you have a footprint assigned to the part then it will be used. So in this case if you don't want the footprint on the PCB just make the component without the footprint and you'll be golden. Maybe make a copy of the component that's footprint-less if you don't want to modify the original.

Best Regards,

Re: How to create a master document with multiple schematics and external off-the-shelf components connected.

rwn24 — Fri, 07 Feb 2025 20:51:41 GMT

Thanks for the quick reply Jorge.

If I duplicate and rename the component in my library and remove the footprints, when trying to add the new component to my schematic, I get this error:

"Cannot find device urn:adsk.wipprod:fs.file:vf.oWrPg1h-RDO2w4VKcA9HQQ ES_DAISY_SEED_NO_FOOTPRINT"

The name of the component is: ES_DAISY_SEED_NO_FOOTPRINT

Also, if I remove the footprints, I can't add the _EXTERNAL_ attribute to the component. I get an error that says: "use the PACKAGE command to select a package variant first". I can add the _EXTERNAL_ attribute before removing the footprints.....but then when I remove the footprint, I get the above error in the schematic.

Re: How to create a master document with multiple schematics and external off-the-shelf components connected.

rwn24 — Fri, 07 Feb 2025 20:58:08 GMT

Thanks for the quick reply Jorge.

If I duplicate and rename the component in my library and remove the footprints, when trying to add the new component to my schematic, I get this error:
"Cannot find device urn:adsk.wipprod:fs.file:vf.oWrPg1h-RDO2w4VKcA9HQQ ES_DAISY_SEED_NO_FOOTPRINT"

The name of the component is: ES_DAISY_SEED_NO_FOOTPRINT

Re: How to create a master document with multiple schematics and external off-the-shelf components connected.

jorge_garcia — Fri, 07 Feb 2025 23:55:59 GMT

Hi @rwn24 ,

How did you make the duplicate? Did you right click and select Duplicate on the component or did you do something else? The original part in your design should not have been renamed or affected otherwise you'll have to do a replace operation.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,