topic Re: Help with alignment workflow in Fusion Design, Validate & Document Forum

Help with alignment workflow

Oceanconcepts — Tue, 16 Jul 2013 23:46:50 GMT

I've had the most challenge in finding methods/ workflows to precisely position components or design features relative to each other. Obviously mostly in the Model workspace. This leaves me with the feeling I just don't know my way around the program, or that I'm not connecting with the basic logic somehow.

As an example, in this screenshot I have a construction plane, and I need to position the rounded lever- part of a switch mechanism- with the center axis of the cylindrical pivot at top precisely aligned with this construction plane. In my other CAD packages this would be two or three clicks and done, but I'm having trouble coming up with a workflow in Fusion that doesn't involve making additional sketches, creating additional objects so I have a component to align with, or some other kludgy workaround. Am I missing how to use some basic feature?

Any and all suggestions appreciated.

Ron

Re: Help with alignment workflow

innovatenate — Wed, 17 Jul 2013 00:38:42 GMT

Is this a file you can upload to the thread? I'd be happy to investigate the model.

From your description, it sounds as though you are looking for an "old school" style constraint. However, with Joints, you should be able to define the relationship with part geometry without the need to create work features. You'll note that after creating joints, you can drive joints and edit joints limits to give you maximum control over the relationships.

Hope this helps.

Re: Help with alignment workflow

Oceanconcepts — Wed, 17 Jul 2013 01:54:35 GMT

Nathan,

I don't think I'm looking for constraints as much as for the Object Snaps that are the top requested feature in the Idea Station.

Joints aren't much help in that I'm trying to develop the model from the inside out- starting with pre defined internal components that will dictate where the outer case can be. I would like to position these parts first, in order to locate the joints. My switches need to be positioned a specific distance from some internal elements, and with their axis aligned with the surface of a circuit board but offset at a specific distance- the construction plane is offset from that surface to give me that reference.

I can see out how to get this done, by starting to build the case walls, making all the appropriate measurements, creating recesses for the switch pivots, and then using joints to position them- but this seems cumbersome and would involve a lot of steps to precisely position the features. What I would like to be able to do is to create a simple sketch line on the plane, and chose to align the construction axis with that line. Or even better, just snap the axis into alignment with the defined plane. Then to go on to build my external features knowing they will fit the elements I need to accommodate. This is really a general comment- this kind of positioning challenge seems to come up a lot for me. I'm typically trying to plop down parts in a particular alignment before starting the external parts of a design- wrong mindset, perhaps?

Another way to phrase this issue: I can use construction planes to align components to each other, but can't align a component to a plane that isn't part of another component, or to a sketch element. It seems to me that would be a useful ability.

I can't upload this to the thread, but I can send it to you directly- there's nothing special about it, though- except for sketch #8 containing parts of a circle that do divide sketch surfaces but can't be selected or deleted using the trim tool. That doesn't seem right...

Ron

Re: Help with alignment workflow

innovatenate — Thu, 18 Jul 2013 20:44:03 GMT

Ron,

Thanks, I took a look at the design and I think I have a recommendation that you'll like. It does involve the creation of a sketch figure, but it would allow you to skip the creation of the reference plane. I added a sketch line on the PCB_board, parallel to rotation axis on the switch. Next, created a PinSlot Joint that will allow me to control the position that the rotation occurs in by controling two separate translation axis. One axis is the offset direction and the other is the slot "slide" direction.

With these existing controls (on sketch dimension and the joint offset/slot values, I should be able to precisely position the switch. I hope this helps, but I'm looking forward to your feedback.

Thanks,

Re: Help with alignment workflow

Oceanconcepts — Fri, 19 Jul 2013 00:25:02 GMT

Nathan,

Thanks for this tip. I will definitely play around with this strategy- seems as if I really need to familiarize myself more with the Assembly tools and joints. The tutorial was nowhere near enough for me to grasp the ways these tools could be used. It's kind of hard for my old school mind to see having a joint with nothing to joint to, but I can see how this would indeed do what I was trying to accomplish. I'll let you know if I come up with any other questions.

Ron

Re: Help with alignment workflow

patrick.miller — Fri, 19 Jul 2013 13:52:08 GMT

Hi Ron,

I'm continually working to build up the help content. There are currently two videos on joints (Position components using joints and Essential Videos: Assemble). Have you viewed both of these and if so, did you find them useful? Are there question you still have or is there other content you would like to see?

This is not just limited to the original poster. It would be great to hear from anyone else that is working their way through joints, position, and motion.

Thanks!

Re: Help with alignment workflow

Anonymous — Sun, 21 Jul 2013 03:39:18 GMT

Patrick,

I too would fall into the old school category of thinking about parts assembly. I watched the two videos you referenced. They are

good and concise. I would only request several additional videos showing more examples of different situations/scenarios of

assembly. I run into the same type of assembly situations that Ron does on almost a daily basis. Watching the work flow of someone

who has achieved rapid facility using joints would be helpful. More examples would be better.

Thanks,

Stan

Re: Help with alignment workflow

Oceanconcepts — Tue, 23 Jul 2013 05:19:42 GMT

Patrick,

I have viewed those videos, but perhaps not enough to really absorb what all can be done. I've been thinking about this issue, trying to discern where my mental blockage is occurring. I'll try to lay out what I think may be some of the problem in getting old schoolers like Stan and myself to think more along Fusion's lines.

One is the name- "Assembly" means putting things together, Tab A into Slot B, key-into-slot, hammering nails kind of thing. "Joints" means ball, rigid, slot, rotary, whatever, but one part moving in contact with another part. What these tools seem to do in Fusion is bigger- more like alignment, relationships, and motion- joints being a subset of those classes.

The videos do help show how to use the tools, but don't help us get over the conceptual hump, because they all deal with assembling two parts that have a definite mechanical joint- touching. What you describe above in proposing a solution to my task is using these tools to define a particular relationship between components.

Once you show me that possibility (again) I can say "Oh, I get that", but when coming from having tools that say "Align: tops-edges-centers-midpoints" etc. it's not intuitive to think of using a tool for creating "Joints: ball-slot-slider-rigid-rotary" to accomplish that task. That leaves us searching for tools that don't exist- or rather they do exist, but don't have the labels or methods we expect. I don't see there is anything really wrong with or missing from Fusion's approach here (apart from some object snaps), but I don't think the approach is easily discovered by those of us looking for the tools we are used to. This isn't going to be much of an issue for noodling around in sculpt, but as soon as one starts to try to do precise modeling this jumps out as a major part of what you need to not just understand but have real facility with. It's been the hardest thing for me to get comfortable with, and I'm not there yet. I have the feeling that this Assembly toolkit may be one of the coolest aspects of Fusion, but one of the hardest to communicate. Looking forward to the webinar tomorrow.

I think video tutorials illustrating using these tools to set up relationships between parts in ways that would not be generally defined as "joints" would be helpful. It's less about how to use the tools in detail than about enlarging the conceptual space where you will be able to think about using them.

Ron

Re: Help with alignment workflow

lure23 — Tue, 23 Jul 2013 10:16:06 GMT

Info on the Tuesday webinar Ron mentioned is here: http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/News-and-Announcements/Fusion-360-Hangout-Tuesdays/td-p/4320817/page/2

Re: Help with alignment workflow

patrick.miller — Tue, 23 Jul 2013 13:04:22 GMT

Thanks for the great feedback. I understand what you are looking for: show the joints workflow in a static model. Something that does not move. I will add that to the list.

The short answer for now is to use the "rigid" joint type. Rigid joints allow no movement between joined components. The intent with this command is to create just one joint where you might have to create multiple constraints in the traditional constraint workflow.

Thanks again for clarifying the workflow and content you're looking for.

Re: Help with alignment workflow

Anonymous — Tue, 23 Jul 2013 16:23:24 GMT

Patrick,

You've got it. In my workflow, assembling and aligning static components is
by far (>90%) of the assembly workflow.

The problem always is "how do I get these parts aligned quickly and
efficiently and have them spaced the right distance

from surfaces and each other etc." Don't forget that nominal clearance
allowances are often modeled into the

assembly. e.g. A boss with a pin protruding from the center will get a
washer concentric to the pin with one face of

the washer a nominal clearance distance from the boss face and then another
boss on a different part with a hole

corresponding to the pin of the first part is assembled concentric to the
pin of the first part and spaced 1 nominal clearance amount + 1 nominal
thickness of the washer + 1 nominal clearance amount from the first boss.
(sometimes of course you need to model zero clearance or negative for
interference fits) If you follow all that, imagine needing to do this to
dozens of parts in an assembly. you want it to go fast and easy with minimal
chance for error.

The other use case is aligning dozens of unique components to circuit boards
then aligning multiple daughter boards

to mother boards and then these to sheet metal components, LED displays,
bezels, grounding straps, flex circuits and headers, standoffs, fasteners,
EMI gaskets, LED indicators ad infinitum. All the while constantly changing
the designs of

the components you do have control of while accommodating the components you
don't and iteratively optimizing

to reduce space while allowing for cooling and interconnect cables. And then
fitting a metal or plastic housing around

this moving target which accommodates human factors and is aesthetically
better than the competition's.

And oh, BTW, all the while you are developing all of the above you are
likely simultaneously developing the tooling and the

assembly processes and robotic workcells for manufacturing the product.
(usually in conjunction with a widely globally dispersed team by this
point).

Bottom line. assembly of static components is an extremely important and
dynamic workflow in the development

of modern consumer products.

Ron knows this well as he has done this before and is currently smack in the
middle of a complex product development.

Best,

Stan