topic Re: "Learn" section tutorials need rather urgent updates. in Fusion Design, Validate & Document Forum

"Learn" section tutorials need rather urgent updates.

TrippyLighting — Sun, 15 May 2016 02:14:38 GMT

After reading another thread/post from a user about joints where he's refering to the "Assembly" tutorial I watched it. I was convinced I had done so before, but this time I noticed content that is pretty misleading.

Over the last weeks and months I've seen so many designs here on the forum that used linked components, sometimes excessively and in the vast majority of cases entirely unnecessary. At no place in these otherwise well done videos is it explained in an way when and when not to use linked conponents.

Right from the start, and this is repeated several times throughout the video, there is a distinction made between distributed design and top-down design. That is the wrong distinction and it is even more wrong given Fusion 360 abilities and also it's limiations.

The distinction by all means should be between Top-down and Bottom-up design. A bottom up design in Fusion 360 can perfectly fine live without any linked components simply because Fusion 360 does not make a distction between component and assembly files. In Fusion 360 a component can perfectly fine coexist or be part of an assembly all in the same file.

A distributd design requires linked components, but the need for a linked component is not really that common. A linked component should only be created when:

It is to be re-used in another design AND
Modifications to it are expected AND
when the design is mature/complete at least in the originating design it was conceived for/in.

For example there is absolutely no need to keep purchased parts linked at all, if they are not modified.

The link can be broken immediately (before saving the file it was inserted to).
Parts that are unique to the design don't need to be linked, ther is no benefit to it, only headaches down the road.

Here are three of the headaches when working wth linked components:

Currently designing with linked components is rather cumbersome and slow, even more so when linked parts are nested ( a assembly contains a linked subassembly that contains linked components). A multistep approch miust be taken to update these components to the lowest level (unless one of the most recent updates fixed that limitation).
When a linked components is inserted and then in a leater version it's not needed anymore it cannot be deleted from the project, because it is still linked to a prior version (well, it can but currntly only with a risky workaround that deletes the version history).
The most annoying thing is that currently the only object that can be hidden/shown in a linked component/assembly is a joint origin. Trying to use hidden objects in a linked component in the design it as inserted to results in numerous edit/save/update cyles which not only slows the workflow but results in an excessive and unnecessary number of design

There is an excellent Autodesk University class detailling the difference between Top-down and Bottom-Up design by @Phil.E and Sachlene Singh.

Please also include Fusion 360 R.U.L.E #1 right into the first video about sketching because that is the stage most everyone starts with and where so many new users, CAD newbies as well as CAD vetereans alike stumble right into the first trap and get off track, sometimes the only recourse being to having to re-start the design from scratch. That is really a shame!

Re: "Learn" section tutorials need rather urgent updates.

daniel_lyall — Sun, 15 May 2016 10:36:14 GMT

ADSK need to higher you and mark, to do some vids and instructions on how to do stuff, you are correct it is the same stuff all the time, how to start a sketch, how to put a model together, half the time you don't need to use joints.

simple stuff but they are getting it wrong by not removing out off date vids and material. it is making it hard for new user's

Re: "Learn" section tutorials need rather urgent updates.

stephen_hooper — Mon, 16 May 2016 02:01:23 GMT

Thanks for the feedback, we appreciate you taking the time to call this out and explain your concern. Am I correct in thinking that your main point is the inferred suggestion that bottom up design necessitates distributed techniques like linking? Would it be fair to say that you can go bottom up with either locally inserted or externally linked components depending on whether the component is to be referenced by several designs and must remain associative to reflect subsequent changes? If we added commentary to the video to explain that, would we resolve your concerns?

Thanks again,

Steve.

Re: "Learn" section tutorials need rather urgent updates.

Phil.E — Mon, 16 May 2016 15:47:09 GMT

@TrippyLighting

We are working to change your three headache exaples for linked designs. I've recently done some testing of the fix for #1, however it's early and there is no set date for release.

Overall your advice is spot on regarding when to use linked designs, or not.

Re: "Learn" section tutorials need rather urgent updates.

TrippyLighting — Tue, 17 May 2016 01:57:14 GMT

@Phil.E

I was aware of that, but thanks for the re-assurance 😉

@stephen_hooper

I watched the video again and If I am not mistaken (I may well be) then it does not mention bottom-up design at all. So for a user new to CAD and design there is really no "inferred suggestion".

They've just been taught the wrong distinction.

Where the documentation then really breaks down is when I then click on "Additional tutorials ->" under the embedded video there is really no immediatly visible reference to Top-down design, Bottom-up design or Distributed Design to be found. One has to use the seach function and the search hits then bring up the proper references. Mostly.

The exception here also is the Bottom-up design. There is no text that explains the concept in depth but the only referenee found by the search is a screencast I made a long time ago (or so it seems) and while I use the term Bottom-up desing in the video, it's actually a top-down design workflow. Pretty funny actually 😉

While a commentary on the video might serve as an interim solution, in the future I'd wish for more "holistic" and cohesive approach to the Fusion 360 training experience that "connects the dots" and invites the curious user to investigate. As I said before the videos otherwise are very well done and I believe have the right pace to keep the attention even of the impatient folks that want to start designing right away. The text section should then pick up on the concepts that were briefly discussed in the videos, and explain these in more depth.

There is no reason the text setion could be refered to in the video where applicable.

I take note that you did not address my concern #2 😉

Incorporating a reference to Fusion 360 R.U.L.E #1, even as a text annotation right under the video would be fine.

This is important because there are "other" people that make YouTube tutorials that also don't work properly with compoenents, e.g they first creat a sketch and then a body and then turn that body into a component. That stuff has the tendency to multiply like a voracious wildfire.

Re: "Learn" section tutorials need rather urgent updates.

daniel_lyall — Tue, 17 May 2016 05:12:18 GMT

@Phil.E, @stephen_hooper

This needs done, even looking at the quick tip done today it is done with sketches quite a lot are, at this time it is wrong to do it that way if it's a one off small job yer what ever, but if it's something someone is going to be using again and again or a part from the modle it needs done in components from the start be it bottom up or top down more so if it has paramaters.

there are a lot of fusion vids out there that are started wrong a gideline needs set up so ADSK do the vids correctly then everyone else will see it and do it, and just send the guidle lines to anyone who does fusion vids, even me. get a interin to do it

what at @TrippyLighting has put below is important please do a quick tip on it it would take 60 seconds, there all ready is a vid on the pros and cons of use sketch's or components just put a link to it. this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH94FnUcXpg

I take note that you did not address my concern #2 😉

Incorporating a reference to Fusion 360 R.U.L.E #1, even as a text annotation right under the video would be fine.

Re: "Learn" section tutorials need rather urgent updates.

Aaron.Magnin — Tue, 17 May 2016 17:16:51 GMT

Hey @TrippyLighting, I was the person who worked on the sketch video, and I definately did notice what you wrote in your first post regarding that video.

After I saw your post I searched the forum, then emailed internally to try to understand what you meant by "R.U.L.E #1". You did not explain what these rules are, or where they came from in the first or the latest post. Is there a list you can point me to? Once I know what that is I can reply/adjust!

Re: "Learn" section tutorials need rather urgent updates.

PhilProcarioJr — Tue, 17 May 2016 17:40:10 GMT

@Aaron.Magnin

Rule#1 Create a component then activate it. Then create a sketch or whatever...

@TrippyLighting

This is almost as bad as adding triangles to T-Splines...

Re: "Learn" section tutorials need rather urgent updates.

Anonymous — Tue, 17 May 2016 18:07:40 GMT

@TrippyLighting:

Thank you for the post.

i am new to F360.

Does you post imply I should skip this, staarting at here:

http://help.autodesk.com/view/NINVFUS/ENU/?guid=GUID-F92C9BAB-8A3D-4179-96F5-64F8968A3327

Assemble

Thanks.

Re: "Learn" section tutorials need rather urgent updates.

Aaron.Magnin — Tue, 17 May 2016 18:08:59 GMT

@PhilProcarioJr Thanks, Phil! Can you include a link or source regarding where these rules are coming from? I'd love to see what the rest of the rules are and how they were developed (could be something I want to link in a blog post or in a future video!)

While I agree that this is a good approach to assembly design in Fusion 360, I'm not sure this workflow is required for a new user to implement on their first sketch....which is really what the video we're discussing was made for. In the video, the end result is a very simple single body and I feel that if we started by creating a component and activating it, we're adding uncessessary steps that could add confusion for a new user.

More advanced training videos are being deveolped, and this is the type of tip that would be beneficial in that context.

@TrippyLighting

Re: "Learn" section tutorials need rather urgent updates.

PhilProcarioJr — Tue, 17 May 2016 18:55:49 GMT

@Aaron.Magnin

" I'm not sure this workflow is required for a new user to implement on their first sketch"

The source..well there really isn't one...Autodesk employees make tutorials that are for a specific use (This is great), but now on to where this is very bad. When you do this and a new user watches it they think this is the correct method to do everything...so they create this elaborate assembly all in one component and bam...everything goes downhill from here on out. This stops working or this doesn't work at all so on and so on. Now said user posts here to the forum why can't I do this or why is this in an erroneous state...now for the really bad part..the answer, well you didn't create a component first then activate it...so now the user thinks I can just drag this into a component now and fix everything...wrong..the timeline is screwed certain things can't be moved and now they have a hot mess on their hands. @TrippyLighting, @HughesTooling, @michallach81 myself and a few others have dealt with this mess time and time again (correct me if I'm wrong guys) so we kinda just started referring to it as rule #1...

Now you can do whatever you feel is right in this case but we are asking you to teach this way. So what we are really asking is for you not to teach bad habits because they stick in new users heads like superglue and in the end you only achieve one thing...upset users..and they are vocal...

Oh and just for the record most people hate watching a bunch of video tutorials so they will usually only see the first few and you never told them to make a component and activate it and why...so now you have the hot mess...

Just my 2 cents maybe the others will chime in...

Cheers

Phil

Re: "Learn" section tutorials need rather urgent updates.

PhilProcarioJr — Tue, 17 May 2016 19:08:23 GMT

@Anonymous

I wont speak for @TrippyLighting, but I will say yes learn about bodies and components first or you will be very upset later.

If you just start sketching without understanding how the end structure in Fusion works your going to be very mad when you find out you have to start from scratch on your designs.

The ONLY time components don't matter is if your creating SIMPLE SINGLE BODIES, but why develop bad habits.

Just learn about the components and bodies first then rock on and create some cool stuff!

Just my 2 cents.

Re: "Learn" section tutorials need rather urgent updates.

Phil.E — Tue, 17 May 2016 19:12:50 GMT

Not to argue, but merely point out: I've been advising users who are doing assemblies (almost all of them) about rule #1 for years, and it's the entire reason the recently added New Component command looks like this:

Re: "Learn" section tutorials need rather urgent updates.

PhilProcarioJr — Tue, 17 May 2016 19:20:32 GMT

@Phil.E

I know you have I was mearly pointing out to @Aaron.Magnin why @TrippyLighting felt it was so important to have in the video. Sorry if this was taken the wrong way.

Aaron said "I'm not sure this workflow is required for a new user to implement on their first sketch"

Do you agree that this shouldn't be taught in the first steps to learning Fusion?

It doesn't matter to me one way or the other, I just know from personal experience of talking with new users that they get pretty upset to find out they didn't do this in the beginning.

I was just trying to help I will regress back to getting some work done.

Cheers

Re: "Learn" section tutorials need rather urgent updates.

Aaron.Magnin — Tue, 17 May 2016 19:23:31 GMT

Hey @PhilProcarioJr ,

First of all, I really appreciate you enlightening me on what RULE #1 is and where it came from. I like it so much I hope you guys add to that list and keep us abreast of your experiences! As the list grows it will not only help new users down the best path, but it will also it will let us know how we can change the software (and educational videos!)

We definitely don't want to send new users down the wrong path, but at the same rate we don't want in inundate them with too much information too soon. For this sketch lesson, I feel bringing up components, bodies, activating components, and the other pertinent information you're suggesting is too soon. However, I'm still open to this idea and will run it by our education team to see if they feel the same.

Re: "Learn" section tutorials need rather urgent updates.

Phil.E — Tue, 17 May 2016 19:42:33 GMT

@PhilProcarioJr

No worries, you are spot on. I was trying to avoid disagreeing with Aaron because I don't. It is too much too soon.

But the other side of that is the reality that rule 1 exists because Fusion almost demands it, even from newbs. You cannot go very far without this being a very important decision for your design. Hopefully not too late to avoid rework. Once you have >1 component, it's too late. So how early is it to tell people to use the New Component command correctly? Seems like early is better.

Re: "Learn" section tutorials need rather urgent updates.

daniel_lyall — Tue, 17 May 2016 19:58:41 GMT

all user from the start should start with components, if not you get question on the forum and we have to say you are doing it wrong, is that fear to new users NO it's not if they learn from the word go to start a component, save and then start drawing that question wont get asked and experienced user's and staff don't have to say your doing it wrong. from a prospective of being a teacher if you teach people wrong you lose your job simple, you teach people properly then it's all good. teaching new user's to start with a component is simple it's not to much info at all. when you start a new design hit save name the design then start a component name that component then start sketching. 21 words to live by. now you say it's to much info for new users then why are ADSK employees doing it wrong who have been around for a few years ????????????????????????????????

Re: "Learn" section tutorials need rather urgent updates.

michallach81 — Tue, 17 May 2016 20:05:08 GMT

I have little different opinion, I don't think that developers are obligated to learn "design", they do cover availble tools and basic concepts, and it should be enough. I can't recall other vendors providing anything else then covering basics. I know a lot of decent tutorials covering workflows and designing in general, but all of them were made by users. It's still early and Fusion don't have enough mature user base. I think with time passing we will see more design tutorial from users. If you have time and patience Phil we could try to create something like wiki... we have on our "myhubs" wiki pages. I don't know if we could catch up developers, but with solid team...

Re: "Learn" section tutorials need rather urgent updates.

Phil.E — Tue, 17 May 2016 20:06:10 GMT

@daniel_lyall

When teaching about the universe, it's critical to focus on what is important first. In the universe of Fusion 360, it is too soon for someone who 39 seconds ago completed their first login to begin telling them about components.

Nobody is saying you guys are wrong, there is zero argument here. At least from me. I just would want to take into account: where is the user on their learning path when we make it super obvious that Rule 1 is very important? If that takes some discussion, it doesn't mean people are arguing that it shouldn't happen at all. This is a lot of dancing on the head of a pin. 🙂

Re: "Learn" section tutorials need rather urgent updates.

michallach81 — Tue, 17 May 2016 20:09:22 GMT

100% agree, "first rule" is good for those who have some knowledge about modeling, timeline and about distinction between DM vs parametric.