topic Re: colored water ..alcohol, amazingly simple manages to be so frustrating! in Fusion Design, Validate & Document Forum

colored water ..alcohol, amazingly simple manages to be so frustrating!

eric_strebel — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 01:36:59 GMT

Classic example of why I hate the render engine in Fusion 360.

I want colored water, alcohol specifically. I select water change the color to be like whiskey and select alcohol...result...

Grey...no mater how i change the color it stays grey...Something so simple is so hard, hate CAD, something so easy is so messed up hard, did I mention that yet!

uggghhhh, I spend 20 minutes making a bottle, then I spend 1.5 hours trying to get the color of the water...

Still nothing, oh BTW the rendering engine has a bug that when I select custom size it makes my image smaller, how that does not get fixed is beyond me. See images, they are full frame when I start but don't turn out that way.... Seriously frustrated once again!

Re: colored water ..alcohol, amazingly simple manages to be so frustrating!

eric_strebel — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 01:57:05 GMT

Local render works a bit better, at least it looks like whiskey!

Must be the cloud render engine, which makes the whole scenario even worse.

Re: colored water ..alcohol, amazingly simple manages to be so frustrating!

colin.smith — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 15:52:50 GMT

Hi @eric_strebel

I'll bring this issue to the rendering team. Would you be able to share your model?

Thanks

Colin

Re: colored water ..alcohol, amazingly simple manages to be so frustrating!

anavaidya — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:21:01 GMT

Hi Eric,

Like Colin said, it'll be good to get your model so that we can figure out the differences between Cloud and Local render and the issue with the colored water.

Also, can you check your Fusion version no? It should be 2.0.2139. Just want to make sure that it's the latest.

Regarding when I select custom size it makes my image smaller - The custom size picks up "width" from the width of the viewport on screen and "height" from the aspect ratio. The aspect ratio is set in Scene Settings (lamp icon). It defaults to Viewport aspect ratio. But can be set to 1:1, 4:3, 16:9, etc. Are you not seeing this behavior?

Thanks,

Re: colored water ..alcohol, amazingly simple manages to be so frustrating!

michallach81 — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 20:14:02 GMT

I can bet that your bottle will look much better with different environment map (black tint is indeed, reflection of a dark background). Also it's important how your liquid fills the bottle. Can you share your file?

Re: colored water ..alcohol, amazingly simple manages to be so frustrating!

hutchij — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 20:17:32 GMT

Hi Eric,

Sorry to hear your frustration. I agree this should be easy but still has some pitfalls.

I suspect the basic problem really relates to the background and secondarily to the absorption distance of the liquid. Note that your are using "constant color" for background. (constant color background is a bit of a hack in a physical renderer) A subtle issue arises when you use constant color background and you have transparent objects. When eye rays pass through the refractive objects, they end up hitting the environment. Basically, you are not seeing the background through the bottle and the constant color everywhere else. This is confusing, agreed and we'll make this harder to encounter. I suspect that in addition, the absorption distance is just not great enough for the whiskey color to have much effect. Just as a check, make the absorption distance small and test 0.5 cm.

A quick way to avoid the background problem is simply to add a physical backdrop. You can crib one from my attached file.

Hope this helps,

John

p.s the differences between canvas, local and cloud should be minimal and will soon be none.

Re: colored water ..alcohol, amazingly simple manages to be so frustrating!

eric_strebel — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 02:47:08 GMT

@colin.smith sure send me your email and I will share it with you.

Re: colored water ..alcohol, amazingly simple manages to be so frustrating!

eric_strebel — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 02:47:27 GMT

@michallach81 sure send me your email and I will share it with you.

Re: colored water ..alcohol, amazingly simple manages to be so frustrating!

michallach81 — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 13:39:46 GMT

I've found few minutes to give you some advices.

1. As @hutchij said, if you have Solid Color as Background you will still see environment map through transparent object. This is why your liquid is black (because we can see dark environment map beneath). How to avoid that? Good practise is to, first choose environment map as background instead of solid color. Now you can see how lights works with your model, you can rotate, move or even change environment map, to siut your taste. After that you can add some backdrop. When I'm in a hurry, I tends to use Skylight map, it gives me white background with no effort. Only downside of that map is that highlihgts are nothing spectacular.

2. Second advise is about modeling transparent objects for rendering. Instead of creating a double sided glass model, you will have to create a full body of glass and place the liquid inside, to avoid the wrong reflections, you would get if you used two different surfaces.
Look at these schemes:

In other rendering packages (NOT IN FUSION) you can try methods described here: https://www.vray.com/vray_for_rhino/manual/liquid_inside_transparent_glass.shtml

At last my example to test. Image below and file in attachments:

Re: colored water ..alcohol, amazingly simple manages to be so frustrating!

colin.smith — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 14:14:22 GMT

@eric_strebel

Colin.smith@autodesk.com

Thanks

Colin

Re: colored water ..alcohol, amazingly simple manages to be so frustrating!

eric_strebel — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 23:08:58 GMT

Invitation fails

Eric

Re: colored water ..alcohol, amazingly simple manages to be so frustrating!

eric_strebel — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 23:33:04 GMT

WOw, thanks for the reply. I shared the file with you.

I will be really honest with you. I am an Industrial designer. I model stuff for production. So doing some sort of a trick to get it to render right is not going to happen for me. I simply don't have time for that. It needs to render realistically with my production data. Honestly I am not being rude here, just straight up.

You can modify the file is you want, be my guest.

You rendering is very nice for Fusion, I will admit that. I like it!

Re: colored water ..alcohol, amazingly simple manages to be so frustrating!

anavaidya — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 23:49:49 GMT

Hi @eric_strebel,

Can you share your file with me too? aradhana.vaidya@autodesk.com?

You are right, things should work correctly, out of the box. Let me take a look at you file. We can then find out if there are problems that need to be fixed with the material preset or if there's something going on the model of the bottel.

Thanks,

Re: colored water ..alcohol, amazingly simple manages to be so frustrating!

eric_strebel — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 23:52:45 GMT

Some quick renders, they look terrible. I adjusted the absorption dept to 5mm as suggested and added a back ground environment...Waste of my time.

Still not the right color liquid and what is with all the banding? more wasted time, grrrrr

Re: colored water ..alcohol, amazingly simple manages to be so frustrating!

eric_strebel — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 23:55:57 GMT

@anavaidya done

Re: colored water ..alcohol, amazingly simple manages to be so frustrating!

cekuhnen — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 02:09:46 GMT

waiting for AutoDesk to provide their solution.

Drums drums drums sounding in the distance ...

Re: colored water ..alcohol, amazingly simple manages to be so frustrating!

cekuhnen — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 02:32:22 GMT

@hutchij I downloaded your file to take a look into it and the render results shows a lot of reflection issues not like in nature ?! Should this be a usable render model for glass fluids?

Re: colored water ..alcohol, amazingly simple manages to be so frustrating!

michallach81 — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 13:52:06 GMT

Hi Eric
I also gonna be honest... with cad data (I do mean production data) it never will be enough realistic (at least under certain circumstances).
You can either have realistic image, or simplicity of a drag&drop approach.
You're underestimating amount of work and knowledge of a people that do only that for living (CGI).
Please don't blame software, because it's not an engine problem, rather user fault.
There are no magic softwares that could understand our intention.
To sum up, if you need quality renders you need to consider additional effort to adjust your models for rendering.
Soon we should get ability to create branches, that should make adjusting process more robust.
Slighty more personal, all that "I am an Industrial designer. I model stuff for production." sounds like excuse, "no pain, no gain".

@cekuhnen
It's a very distant sound... and after @anavaidya statement "You are right, things should work correctly, out of the box" I wouldn't expect too much.
I've checked your Wine model, and I have to say, that I used to utilise same method (rendering surfaces, in theory no double walls).
But, I always get the impression, that this way we changing IOR (refraction), please take a look on some samples below, to compare (Claas vs Michał).
Unfortunately I don't have any quality reference image, to confirm my suspicions.

Re: colored water ..alcohol, amazingly simple manages to be so frustrating!

anavaidya — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 16:29:00 GMT

Hi @eric_strebel, thanks for the model. Sorry for the delay in responding. I was busy at a Fusion rendering meetup in SF last night. I'm looking at the model right now and will post my finding shortly.

Re: colored water ..alcohol, amazingly simple manages to be so frustrating!

Anonymous — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 16:51:35 GMT

I've done whiskey bottles in KeyShot, and the trick has always been that the interior surface of the glass is in fact the liquid. The glass must be a surface, there can be no gap between liquid and a double wall of glass. And certainly, if they are two separate solids with no separation, you are going to get interference bands. So the glass surface model wraps around from the outside down to the surface level of the liquid. The liquid has the meniscus modeled into it. The top of the liquid with the meniscus may be assigned a different material, but in my experience it can be the same as the liquid itself, especially in a bottle with a cap on it. The liquid also needs to be able to have two separate IOR values that can be assigned to it; incoming IOR and outgoing IOR. The outgoing IOR needs to be set for the glass, not the liquid. I've not played with the Fusion render engine yet, so I can't speak for it having these settings for it's liquid materials.