topic Re: Unable to create joint without errors (new user) in Fusion Design, Validate & Document Forum

Unable to create joint without errors (new user)

Rob-NL — Fri, 22 Nov 2024 14:07:07 GMT

Hi, fairly new user here and this is my first post. Hope someone can give me a hand with my questions or point me in the right direction.

Introduction
I've been trying to teach myself how to use Fusion by watching YouTube video's and by a lot of experimentation and trial and error. This with the end goal of using CAD to design (and then build) a lot of items in my home renovation project. Specifically items such as inbuilt wardrobes, utility cabinets, bathroom cabinets and my workshop workbenches.

Context
I've started by recreating the workbench in Fusion that I recently built in real life from a set of purchased Sketchup plans. It took me quite a long while but I eventually succeeded in getting a perfect copy of the Sketchup model and my real life workbench. However, I didn't use the correct workflow and only managed to get there with a lot of yellow items on my timeline. I mainly succeeded in getting the desired end result by trying and retrying until things looked right. And not by always fully understanding why something did or didn't work out. This first project did get me very motivated to better learn how to create with Fusion though.

First real project (with a lot of warnings)

So I decided to start again from scratch, apply my lessons learned, to use Parameters from the get-go and to learn why things do or don't work in Fusion. Specifically so that I can create variations of the initial workbench design by setting different widths and depths in the Parameters, as I'll be building a very wide workbench soon to cover an entire wall in my workshop.

Current issue
I thought I was doing well, with no yellow or red in my timeline, having all sketches dimensioned/ constrained and by using parameters, joints and rigid groups. Until I copied a component and tried to join it like I had done with the original component.

I can't seem to get this copied component joined where I want it to go without a warning. I can get it in the correct position by just moving it but I think then the model would break when I change the dimensions in the parameters.

Example of what I see when I try to join

Question(s)

What am I doing wrong here? / how can I create the join I'm looking for (see image from the purchased Sketchup plans below the second question)
Is there a resource where I can learn what the icons mean that I see when I hover over a "jointable point" in the design? I now just keep trying all variations until the animation shows me the move I'm looking for.

Joint that I'm trying, but failing, to recreate: the upper centerrail

Attachments

The first file I made that looks good but was made with a lot of warnings (Hooked on Wood Workbench without parameters v2.f3d)
The current file where I try to recreate the first file but now by doing everything correctly (Paramatric design Hooked on Wood workbench nr2 v18.f3d)

Re: Unable to create joint without errors (new user)

CGBenner — Fri, 22 Nov 2024 14:42:45 GMT

@Rob-NL

Welcome to the forum, and kudos on a very well detailed first post (including attaching your file!). Hopefully some of the Fusion gurus here will have some time and insights that will help you out. Good luck!

Re: Unable to create joint without errors (new user)

TrippyLighting — Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:20:03 GMT

Question:

The new design grouped everything under one component called Workbench.

The old design did not, What's the reason for that?

Hint: If that complete workbench is the entire design, you don't need the new level.

I would completely avoid the position capture feature. It has a particular purpose that is NOT positioning components for assembly.

Re: Unable to create joint without errors (new user)

TrippyLighting — Fri, 22 Nov 2024 19:01:17 GMT

If you GTP (ground to parent) these 4 components, the rigid group joint isn't needed.
In general GTP attribute makes a lot of rigid group joints unnecessary.

Edit: There are a lot of symmetries in the Bench Body design that you are not taking advantage of.

If you did, this design had at least 1/3 less of a timeline!

Re: Unable to create joint without errors (new user)

Rob-NL — Fri, 22 Nov 2024 19:42:59 GMT

Thanks for going through the trouble of opening my designs to help me out, much appreciated!

To answer your question:
In the old design I tried to model the full workshop remodelling that I'm about to start soon. That version of the design had multiple variations of this workbench in it. So the browser had components Workbench 1, Workbench 2, etc. in it. To keep my question concise I created a new file with only the components of that workbench in it to share here on this forum.

When I started from scatch to create the second design I looked at the component order I used there. Trying to stick to rule #1 I first made the general component structure. And didn't realize that the first component wouldn't be neccesary.

Took a lot of words to say that I did that with no specific goal in mind.

Re: Unable to create joint without errors (new user)

Rob-NL — Fri, 22 Nov 2024 19:58:58 GMT

"I would completely avoid the position capture feature. It has a particular purpose that is NOT positioning components for assembly."
Thanks, I'll look into that feature now to see if I can understand what it does better. For now I'll go with your suggestion and answer the pop-up with "no" when it pops-up.

"In general GTP attribute makes a lot of rigid group joints unnecessary."
Using the GTP attribute way, if I were to change the workbench height, width and/or depth via parameter settings, do you think Fusion would still know where the different components need to meet in 3d space?

My reasoning was that if I would recreate the real life joints that this would give me better results when changing the parameters. Going to experiment with that now I think!

"There are a lot of symmetries in the Bench Body design that you are not taking advantage of."
I'm just starting to see what is possible in Fusion. Almost every YouTube tutorial I watch shows me at least one feature whose application I just started to understand. It's very much a phase of gathering building blocks of basic knowledge now, followed by then understanding just a little bit better what else might be possible or how to do things better.

Thanks for your input!

Re: Unable to create joint without errors (new user)

Drewpan — Fri, 22 Nov 2024 22:57:47 GMT

Hi,

Great first post with lots of detail. Welcome to the forum. Your design looks great too.

You seem to have learned quite a lot from simply watching YouTube videos but I would suggest that you have been

lucky and not found too many Cowboys that teach you bad habits and workflows. Have a look at RULE #0, #1 and #2

that are pinned to the top of the forum. I would strongly advise you to read the Documentation and do the

embedded tutorials within, and also do the Self Paced Learning on the AutoDesk website. This will teach and define

many things for you and time spent doing so is NEVER wasted.

Cheers

Andrew

Re: Unable to create joint without errors (new user)

davebYYPCU — Fri, 22 Nov 2024 22:58:54 GMT

Initially, which Joint are you struggling with?

I see that you have jointed a spreader rail at floor level, and a capture position immediately after that, the spreader is not quite to the top of the post. Not seen that before, I am wondering what selections you made for that to even be a legal manouvre.

Some comments, without being critical. You are working way too hard. File demonstrates you have just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

Plan on making one of every unique component first.

In no particular order or combo of - pattern Copy them, Assemble them.

Your modelling will be so much simpler.

In both files your bench top is late in the timeline. I presume your overall dimensions are not used until then, and preceding calculations would be messy.

Let me know - prefer to continue with parametric version.

Re: Unable to create joint without errors (new user)

TrippyLighting — Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:24:24 GMT

The GTP attribute is quite the feature. If you apply it to a component before you pattern it, the patterned instances will automatically be GTP as well, so they don't need to be joined to anything.

(view in My Videos)

Re: Unable to create joint without errors (new user)

TrippyLighting — Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:58:44 GMT

@davebYYPCU wrote:

... File demonstrates you have just enough knowledge to be dangerous. ...

I would disagree with that. This is pretty decent for a first or second go at a design.

Re: Unable to create joint without errors (new user)

davebYYPCU — Sat, 23 Nov 2024 01:08:37 GMT

Was not meant to be taken literally, but

I see that you have jointed a spreader rail at floor level, and a capture position immediately after that, the spreader is not quite to the top of the post.

What is your description for this? Immediately in front of the first yellow icon.

Re: Unable to create joint without errors (new user)

Rob-NL — Sat, 23 Nov 2024 04:57:25 GMT

Hi and thanks. The original design isn't mine though, I purchased the workbench plans as a Sketchup file and am just trying to recreate it in Fusion so that I can create modifications of the initial plans.

I'd read the pinned posts about rules #0, #1 and #2 before posting here. And I've just found the Self Paced Learning video's; I'll follow your advice and go through those. One question though, what specific Documentation do you mean?

Re: Unable to create joint without errors (new user)

Rob-NL — Sat, 23 Nov 2024 05:16:52 GMT

@davebYYPCU wrote:
Initially, which Joint are you struggling with?

Hi, this is the join where I run into trouble with:

This might show more clearly which two points I'm trying to join:

I see that you have jointed a spreader rail at floor level, and a capture position immediately after that, the spreader is not quite to the top of the post. Not seen that before, I am wondering what selections you made for that to even be a legal manouvre.

The location of the spreader at floor level I was happy with as that's per the original design. When Fusion asked me to capture or revert I was under the impression that it would be wise to choose capture to keep it there.

And the other spreader, not quite to the top of the post is only there because I moved it there (using M) so that I could easily select the join points.

Re: Unable to create joint without errors (new user)

Rob-NL — Sat, 23 Nov 2024 05:33:46 GMT

Some comments, without being critical. You are working way too hard. File demonstrates you have just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

Reads like a compliment, I'll take it 🙂

Plan on making one of every unique component first.
In no particular order or combo of - pattern Copy them, Assemble them.
Your modelling will be so much simpler..

Hadn't thought of that approach. Will experiment with that straight away. Thanks.

In both files your bench top is late in the timeline.

In the first design I added the feet very late, wanted to get the hard stuff out of the way first, and only then had the total height of the workbench. Then I could place the apron on top. That's actually just like I built the real life version of the workbench. Seemed to make most sense.

I presume your overall dimensions are not used until then, and preceding calculations would be messy.

I don't understand what you mean there, sorry.

And I'll continue with the second -parametric- design, the first design was my first attempt at a Fusion design. The second design is meant to be one that's done right so that I can use it to create different variations of the workbench with different dimensions so that I can create them as my new workbenches in my workshop.

Re: Unable to create joint without errors (new user)

Rob-NL — Sat, 23 Nov 2024 05:51:30 GMT

@TrippyLighting wrote:
The GTP attribute is quite the feature. If you apply it to a component before you pattern it, the patterned instances will automatically be GTP as well, so they don't need to be joined to anything.

Someone else also advised me to pattern components, that's what I'll try next. Not entirely sure yet how that would work out with setting the positions via parameter values yet if I don't join them. But I'll give that a go now. Thanks.

About the video, don't think if I fully understood: did you recreate the workbench base and were you surprised that the parameters worked, or that the relative positions remained intact? Or is it the other way around and were you displeased that the top center rails disappeared? I feel like there was something funny going on but that my knowledge is too limited yet to understand what that was.

And thanks for all the input !

Re: Unable to create joint without errors (new user)

davebYYPCU — Sat, 23 Nov 2024 06:50:28 GMT

Ah, yes that is the one I highlighted earlier,

I wondered how you could move a jointed member after it was jointed.

So to joint that spreader at top of the front post is being prevented by earlier joints, and the error is announcing that I can't lift this end of the spreader up.

Ok that top spreader is part of this highlighted Rigid Group.

The highlighted spreader joint is not actually jointed to the rear post, the subject of my early question to Trippy.

(I have now watched Trippy's video.) So just reading the Trippy file timeline, you will see that he has built the 16 frame (composite) members with just 5 extrusions. Then the Patterns are used for duplicating the originals, as such, Trippy and I are on the same page, even though I speak Aussie. So do not fear the patterns will not be a problem.

just 5 extrusions....

Long and short, long frame member

Long and short Post, and

one spreader.

Might help....

Re: Unable to create joint without errors (new user)

Drewpan — Sat, 23 Nov 2024 06:43:29 GMT

Hi,

The actual Fusion Documentation here:

https://help.autodesk.com/view/fusion360/ENU/?guid=GUID-1C665B4D-7BF7-4FDF-98B0-AA7EE12B5AC2

You can also find it here:

While you might not need to read it all word for word as you seem to be on top of a lot of things already, it would

certainly be worth skimming over and clarifying anything you are not sure of. The Documentation has many

embedded tutorials that are different from but related to the Self Paced Learning. Also you will pick up some of the

finer points and options in some more common commands that you may not initially realise what they are for, but

once you do know them you use them frequently.

Practice is one of the best ways to learn this stuff. I frequently trawl the Internet for interesting sets of Plans and

Drawings and try modelling them in Fusion. I might be copying someone else's work but I am not interested in

building or selling these Plans, just modelling them for practice. Doing this is quite entertaining and you still have

to work out how to make it work in fusion. Just because someone else designed it, does not mean modelling it will

be simple.

Cheers

Andrew

Re: Unable to create joint without errors (new user)

TrippyLighting — Sat, 23 Nov 2024 11:41:06 GMT

I suggest or even recommend that you, @davebYYPCU and @Drewpan, watch the video I created, examine the attached model, and see what you can learn from it.

Re: Unable to create joint without errors (new user)

TrippyLighting — Sat, 23 Nov 2024 11:46:14 GMT

@Drewpan also recommended you read the documentation. In this case, I would recommend the Ground to Parent section, which I have linked to here, for your convenience!

Once you've done this, you need to examine my model, going step by step through the timeline, to see how it works.

Re: Unable to create joint without errors (new user)

TrippyLighting — Sat, 23 Nov 2024 11:55:30 GMT

@Rob-NL wrote:

About the video, don't think if I fully understood: did you recreate the workbench base and were you surprised that the parameters worked, or that the relative positions remained intact?

I was surprised that the patterned top side rail did not pattern correctly. I've reported that as a bug on another channel that is not open to the public and got some quick feedback from one of my favorite Fusion team members.

I was able to work around it by patterning the bottom rails separately.

I was NOT surprised that the parameters worked. Again, after watching the video and reading the documentation for the ground-to-parent attribute, you should go through my design step by step.