topic Re: Point Group and Grade Creation Issues in Civil 3D Forum

Point Group and Grade Creation Issues

colinV5BWC — Fri, 03 Apr 2020 21:04:03 GMT

I have been having grade point group and grade creation problems. I have a drawing I am working on which I have created points from an excel file with the draw multiple points tool and then I convert them to cad points, but the cad points will not create a group file which I can add to the surface. To test if I it was a drawing issue, I opened a blank file and did the same, this time the point group was made and I was able to make a surface from the points. However, in the drawing I am able to make the points in, I am now not able to use any of the grade creation tools. Grade creation works fine in my original drawing which will not allow create the point groups. How can I make sure that the point group will generate when I create the cad points in my original drawing. Alternatively, I am willing to to build my surface in a different drawing, but how could I solve the grade creation issue?

Re: Point Group and Grade Creation Issues

Joe-Bouza — Sat, 04 Apr 2020 00:20:32 GMT

Im confused. why create a point files to imports as cogo point that you want to turn into acad point to add to a surface? You know you can add a point file(s) to a surface directly right? it is actually the Best practices suggested method.

What is a "group file" made from acad points? cad point would be added as "drawing objects>> points

When you say cad points to many that is a generic acad node that can have xyz.` if you mean civil3d points they are referred to as Cogo Points

Grade point group? whats that? Grade creation tools? you mean the grading tools? are you sure you set a site?

points, point groups, and surfaces should not effect the the grading tool bar

Re: Point Group and Grade Creation Issues

colinV5BWC — Sat, 04 Apr 2020 00:49:21 GMT

Sorry, I was typing and backed up, but didn't proof read what i wrote. I meant point group not grade point group. I am new to civil 3d and I have been using tutorials I've searched to teach myself how to do everything, I've finally hit a point where I don't believe I can find any information on my problem. It may be that I'm missing some key information and not doing things correctly from the start.

I get a lot of topo files which do not have any points in them so I've been doing a data extraction to create an excel file then I use draw multi point and switch them to cad points. It usually only takes me about 5 or 10 minutes and I have the surface no problem, it's just now when I do it for this particular job, my imported points do not create a point group which I can add to the surface. Even when I have set up a point group to send the points to, it still doesn't work. It seems to be having a problem with the file I'm working in and no problem with a fresh drawing file which I am able to make the surface doing this process. The thing is that when I do it on the blank drawing, it doesn't matter what type of grade creation I use (grade to surface or grade to elevation), it doesn't register my feature line and allow it to grade.

It may be that since I am so fresh to it that I just don't understand the mechanics of sites and grade groups, but that doesn't solve the issue as to why a surface can be created with my points in a fresh drawing and not my existing drawing.

Also, I do understand importing the file, but the existing one I had from the surveyor plotted out in an s shape across the screen rather than how the points are actually laid out, so I just stuck with what I knew how to do for the moment which is draw multipoint from copy paste.

Re: Point Group and Grade Creation Issues

Jeff_M — Sat, 04 Apr 2020 00:49:11 GMT

Can you post the drawing file that isn't working?

Re: Point Group and Grade Creation Issues

colinV5BWC — Sat, 04 Apr 2020 00:50:29 GMT

Sorry, this is my first time posting on the board, are you looking for that actual file or a screen shot?

Re: Point Group and Grade Creation Issues

Jeff_M — Sat, 04 Apr 2020 00:52:49 GMT

The actual dwg file

Re: Point Group and Grade Creation Issues

colinV5BWC — Sat, 04 Apr 2020 01:02:25 GMT

Don't know what happened, guess some how I deleted my earlier response, but basically I was saying that I didn't mean grade point group, it was a proof reading issue. I'm new to civil 3d and may not understand the mechanics of some of the things I am doing. I've been teaching myself civil 3d from tutorials I have found online and it's been successful until now.

I get a lot of topo files without the point file so I create an excel file from data extraction, draw multipoint, create points and then make my surface. When I do it in my main file it won't create a point group to add to surface and even if I make a point group of the points to add to my surface it doesn't work. I did get a point file from the surveyor but it creates an S shape of the points rather than laying them out correctly like when I use the process I've been using. The data extraction method has worked every time until now, it seems to be a problem with my particular file as far as I can tell.

When I do it in a blank file, the method works, but none of the grade creation works for me whether it's to surface or elevation, seems to not register the feature line. Seems like I'm missing some critical information.

Re: Point Group and Grade Creation Issues

colinV5BWC — Sat, 04 Apr 2020 01:03:51 GMT

here's my file and the survey file

Re: Point Group and Grade Creation Issues

colinV5BWC — Sat, 04 Apr 2020 01:08:05 GMT

I've tried deleting everything out and haven't gotten back to where I was, but I've attached the surveyors file and my excel file as reference in this response.

Re: Point Group and Grade Creation Issues

Jeff_M — Sat, 04 Apr 2020 01:44:05 GMT

I ran AUDIT on your Limmer Loop dwg. It found 490 problems with CogoPoints. I was then able to create a surface from the point group ImportedPoints. So far I've been unable to get a grading to work in that drawing, however.

Re: Point Group and Grade Creation Issues

colinV5BWC — Sat, 04 Apr 2020 02:02:29 GMT

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one with the problem, thought I didn't understand it well enough (which is probably still true). You're where I was when I started a fresh file, I couldn't understand why the grading wouldn't work in that file though. I really appreciate you taking a look.

Re: Point Group and Grade Creation Issues

colinV5BWC — Sat, 04 Apr 2020 02:49:15 GMT

Do you think it’s some sort of corruption that I need to start from scratch? I don’t have a problem doing that if it works, but seems like there’s something I’m missing.

Re: Point Group and Grade Creation Issues

Jeff_M — Sat, 04 Apr 2020 18:58:59 GMT

Your surface was created a long distance from your linework. It looks like you brought in the points with the Northings and Eastings switched. Reimporting the point txt file as a PNEZD format, overwriting the existing points, then rebuilding the surface, now allows the grading to work.

Re: Point Group and Grade Creation Issues

colinV5BWC — Sat, 04 Apr 2020 22:41:43 GMT

Thanks so much, it's working now. I don't understand because I had tried deleting many times, I guess I screwed something up when I created the point file. I remade the point file and everything worked out. how were you able to determine that the points were away from the drawing? When I imported them it gridded out in the spot I was working, I didn't think that would be the issue.

Re: Point Group and Grade Creation Issues

Joe-Bouza — Sat, 04 Apr 2020 23:42:52 GMT

I applaud your determination.

Unless you absolutely need the cogo point I suggest you forego the DATAEXTRACTION to avoid any potential errors. Not sure why your surveyor would not give you a point file ?

Here's the thing if you extract the pnezd and build a TIN and its wrong - thats on you. if you build a TIN from the Contours the surveyor provided and something goes wrong at construction - thats on him.

the surveyor gave you a nice set of 1 foot contours, build your surface from the provided polylines. It took me 15 seconds to create the surface from the provided poly line.

Note: of all the points in his field you do not know if he excluded any in his contour development.

I still stand by my first advice if you have a point file, add the point file to the surface not the gogo points

Re: Point Group and Grade Creation Issues

colinV5BWC — Sun, 05 Apr 2020 01:12:29 GMT

Well I got a point file, but it came out totally wrong when I tried to plot it. I guess I don't understand civil 3d enough yet to use the provided contours, I've just been trying to teach myself with everything I can find on youtube and by searches. It seemed to making a data extraction and making a surface from the points would be the same as being provided a point file. I guess I need to really take a class to make sure I'm doing things right moving forward.

Some of the good surveyors will provide the point file, but I get this all the time. I've had some guys try to charge for the point file which is beyond me as to why they would do that, but I get stuck with whoever the client gives me so it's not like I can stay away from them. I have my suggested surveyors and they will provide anything I need.

Re: Point Group and Grade Creation Issues

Joe-Bouza — Sun, 05 Apr 2020 11:35:02 GMT

I get that your learning and im not trying to make you feel bad im just sharing my experience with you. We all started with this software exactly where you are at, you are in the right place for questions and answers.

Yes Dataextracting his spot elevation labels would be similar to "receiving" a point file except when the judge says did you receive a point file from the surveyor? you cannot answer yes and the judge could give a rats tush about DataExrtraction or Youtube.

Youtube is a wonderful resource for learning the software I'm sharing with you my knowledge of potential liability; youtube wont tell you that.. yes points are are fundamental building block but there are others. I am also sharing an efficiency workflow that your employer would appreciate.

Yes unfortunately some surveyors will try to hold you over a barrel. are they working for the same client?

Lets look at the workings of a surface:

if you expand the surface collection in toolspace you see the image below. every surface has the same exact collection. I highlighted the ones I feel are fundamentally important to understand. In no particular order

Boundary : can be a user defined closed poly lint to control the limits of triangulation (often best to add last)

Breaklines: physical objects to add where discontinuity occurs; curbs and walls...(often feature line or 3d poly lines, special break line called proximity can use a 2d line)

Contours: 2d poly lines with elevations ( can be drafted of inherited from other sources)

Drawing objects: pretty much any native acad object (*)

Point files: ( csv files of various formats can be added to surfaces directly) (**)

point Groups: ( cogo grouped together)

* right clicking each type in toolspace allows you to add to the surface definition

** it is true if the surface is disconnected from the file there would be a problem but this is the best practices suggested use over creating the cogo points "in the surface file". it a performance thing. some surfaces could have thousands or millions of points, putting that many cogo in dwg would crush cad

explore each of those components. you will find it enlightening

Re: Point Group and Grade Creation Issues

colinV5BWC — Sun, 05 Apr 2020 20:40:32 GMT

Thanks, I'm going to do some more research. Any online class you would recommend?

Re: Point Group and Grade Creation Issues

Joe-Bouza — Sun, 05 Apr 2020 23:34:49 GMT

youtube Jerry Bartles.

Mostly keep scraping your knuckles under the hood 👍

Re: Point Group and Grade Creation Issues

colinV5BWC — Mon, 06 Apr 2020 02:05:50 GMT

Thanks, appreciate all your help.