topic Re: Need to inserts USGS topo map into C3D drawing. in Civil 3D Forum

Need to inserts USGS topo map into C3D drawing.

KarlHanson — Fri, 01 Dec 2023 23:49:06 GMT

I am having difficulty inserting a USGS topo map into my drawing. My drawing is set on State Plane coordinates. The USGS topo map is NAD83 with TM projection. https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/topoview/viewer/#13/35.6875/-92.3125 is the link. The header image file is:

2.032
0
0
-2.032
492604.97238
3957790.68834

When I use Raster to transform it gives message "The coordinate system chosen for this image is invalid". Any ideas how to fix this or what coordinate system I should be using? Thanks.

Re: Need to inserts USGS topo map into C3D drawing.

Pointdump — Sat, 02 Dec 2023 07:24:58 GMT

Hi Karl,
The PRJ file included with the downloaded images is nonsense, so the Raster Tools can't figure out what to do. Either change the PRJ file to EPSG:26915 or tell Raster Tools to use only the TFW file.
There's a couple of ways to bring that image into your drawing. Easiest way would be MAPCONNECT. You'll need to Edit the Coordinate System to show the image's coordinate system, EPSG:26915 NAD83/UTM zone15N.
Another way would be to use Attach and Query in the Map Tools.
Dave

Re: Need to inserts USGS topo map into C3D drawing.

Pointdump — Sat, 02 Dec 2023 08:02:44 GMT

Karl,
Second way.
Use Raster Tools IINSERT to bring the image into a drawing assigned EPSG:26915 NAD83/UTM zone15N. Save and Close the drawing.
Open a new drawing assigned EPSG:3433 NAD83/Arkansas North(ftUS). In the Map Explorer Tab of Map Task Pane (MAPWSPACE >> Show), Attach the UTM drawing. Query >> Location >> All >> Execute Query.
Dave

Re: Need to inserts USGS topo map into C3D drawing.

KarlHanson — Mon, 04 Dec 2023 18:22:05 GMT

Thank you for reply but it looks like the inserted "Shirley" USGS 24K map is inserted in the wrong location relative to the Geolocation online map. It looks about 40 or 50 miles off. I have spend a couple hours on this and am stumped. Any other ideas?

Re: Need to inserts USGS topo map into C3D drawing.

KarlHanson — Mon, 04 Dec 2023 20:38:37 GMT

Possible problem found: when I look at the TFW file the 5th line is the x coordinate of the top left of image, and the 6th line is the y coordinate of the top left of image.

It seems the Y coordinates are correct. Topo maps that run north/south relative to each other line up nicely. The difference being about 13,864 meters or so.

But the X coordinates between topo maps that run east west only have a difference of a couple feet. So they insert essentially on top of each other. Seems the USGS site is giving away bad data?

Re: Need to inserts USGS topo map into C3D drawing.

Pointdump — Mon, 04 Dec 2023 21:19:31 GMT

Karl,

You're right, and I should have checked this.

Dave

Re: Need to inserts USGS topo map into C3D drawing.

Pointdump — Mon, 04 Dec 2023 21:37:20 GMT

Karl,
I see the problem. UTM83-15 coordinate system should have a central meridian of -93. The XML file for the image says the central meridian is -92.3125, even though the map says UTM83-15. That's crazy cakes wierd!
Looks like you'll need to create a custom coordinate system to use this imagery.
Dave

Re: Need to inserts USGS topo map into C3D drawing.

KarlHanson — Mon, 04 Dec 2023 21:43:00 GMT

Thanks Dave. Any advice on how to create a custom coordinate system? Not really my area. I'm just trying to make a simple map!

Re: Need to inserts USGS topo map into C3D drawing.

Pointdump — Mon, 04 Dec 2023 21:47:59 GMT

I'll create one and test things out. Results tomorrow morning.

Dave

Re: Need to inserts USGS topo map into C3D drawing.

Pointdump — Tue, 05 Dec 2023 08:04:43 GMT

Karl,
I created a custom projection using the information in the image PRJ and XML files. Drawing attached. When you open the drawing C3D will ask if you want to add the new definition. Hit OK. In MAPCSLIBRARY you can see that I changed only the central meridian, from -93 to -92.3125.(Edit: I also changed the extents of Bing Live Maps coverage.) The new coordinate system is named "UTM83-15_USGS-TopoView".
One other way to beat these images into submission would be to use Raster Tools Rubbersheet to make them conform to UTM83-15.
Dave

Re: Need to inserts USGS topo map into C3D drawing.

KarlHanson — Tue, 05 Dec 2023 19:23:20 GMT

Well I still can't get it to work. I insert the topo map and they are still on top of each other. If the X value in the header file is only 20 meters or so different then won't the image only be offset 20 meters? Should be about 11,300 meters, give or take, to move one far enough so they don't overlap.

And also, when I turn on ESRI maps it shows to be in Algeria. I'm out of ideas.

Re: Need to inserts USGS topo map into C3D drawing.

Pointdump — Tue, 05 Dec 2023 19:52:46 GMT

Karl,
I hear Algeria is nice this time of year. 🙂
I'm not following you. Where are you getting "11,300 meters"? Are where are you getting "offset 20 meters"?
Proof of the pudding is C3D coords matching the map grids. They do for me. Don't go by the TFW file. And if nothing else works for you, use the rubbersheet command in the Raster Tools to geo-reference the maps.
Dave

Re: Need to inserts USGS topo map into C3D drawing.

KarlHanson — Tue, 05 Dec 2023 21:35:40 GMT

Dave, again thanks for all this. Could you try one last thing? Insert the Parma quad next to the Shirley quad we have been working with? Do they line up correctly? These run east/west and I can't get to work. The north/south maps line up together.

Link: https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/topoview/viewer/#12/35.6840/-92.2328

Re: Need to inserts USGS topo map into C3D drawing.

Pointdump — Tue, 05 Dec 2023 22:40:57 GMT

Karl,
OK, I see what you're saying now. The maps north and south of, respectively, Parma and Shirley, are OK, but not when inserted side by side.
The Parma Geotiffs show a Central Meridian of -92.1875 and the Shirley Geotiffs show -92.3125. Two different coordinate systems. So you'll need to create a second custom projection for Parma. Results in the morning.
Dave

Re: Need to inserts USGS topo map into C3D drawing.

KarlHanson — Tue, 05 Dec 2023 23:13:58 GMT

Wow I don't think USGS thought this through very well.

Re: Need to inserts USGS topo map into C3D drawing.

Pointdump — Wed, 06 Dec 2023 07:12:15 GMT

Karl,
It is unfathomable to me why USGS pulled these coordinate system shenanigans. Attached please find another drawing you can use to add Parma's -92.1875 central meridian.
With that you can use either method to bring the imagery into a state plane drawing: MAPCONNECT or Attach&Query.
Dave

Re: Need to inserts USGS topo map into C3D drawing.

KarlHanson — Wed, 06 Dec 2023 14:44:21 GMT

Thanks Dave! Now off to learn how to make coordinate systems for each map I want to bring into a drawing.

Re: Need to inserts USGS topo map into C3D drawing.

Pointdump — Wed, 06 Dec 2023 16:15:06 GMT

Karl,
Here's the steps to using those insane TopoView maps in Civil 3D. You'll just need to change particulars for each map.
The downloads come with a PRJ file and an XML file. Both give you the information you need. The PRJ is a little easier.

PROJCS["GCS_North_American_1983",
GEOGCS["GCS_North_American_1983",
DATUM["D_North_American_1983",
SPHEROID["GRS_1980",6378137.0,298.257222101004]],
PRIMEM["Greenwich",0.0],
UNIT["Degree",0.0174532925199433]],
PROJECTION["Transverse_Mercator"],
PARAMETER["False_Easting",500000.0],
PARAMETER["False_Northing",0.0],
PARAMETER["Central_Meridian",-92.1875],
PARAMETER["Scale_Factor",0.9996],
PARAMETER["Latitude_Of_Origin",0.0],
UNIT["Meter",1.0]]

PROJCS (PROJected Coordinate System) should have a name that is easy to search in MAPCSLIBRARY. "CM-92.1875_Parma" might be a good searchable CS name. Each new custom CS will be easier because you can Duplicate and Edit earlier ones.
MAPCSCREATE in the Planning and Analysis Workspace gives you a nice wizard to guide you through the steps. After creation you sometimes need to exit and re-start to be able to use the new coordinate system.
Dave

Re: Need to inserts USGS topo map into C3D drawing.

Cadguru42 — Thu, 07 Dec 2023 14:20:27 GMT

@Pointdump this is why I love the forums. You should send this info to USGS so they know they've screwed up.