topic Re: C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported? in Civil 3D Forum

C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

Neilw_05 — Mon, 24 Apr 2017 18:13:00 GMT

It appears we can no longer create Point Clouds within Civil 3D as of 2018 release. The workflow now is to use Recap to create the cloud and then attach it to C3D. I tried to create a Point Cloud in Recap using the 3 Elevation formats available from the National Map (Grid, Float and IMG). None of these formats are supported in Recap. So what is the workflow to get the elevation data sets into C3D? I know we can add a grid file to a surface in C3D but we need to filter the data first to make the resulting surface usable.

Re: C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

tcorey — Mon, 24 Apr 2017 19:17:59 GMT

Neil,

You can probably use QGIS to convert those files to a .pnt (ascii xyz) file. ReCap can use the .pnt. Use ReCap to edit the point cloud, save it as a ReCap project file (.rcp), attach the point cloud in Civil 3D, create surface from point cloud.

QGIS is free software. If you don't know about this little gem, you need to. It is indispensable for working with and being able to clip public elevation data (not necessarily point clouds, but surface data). Agencies give you the data, hooray for democracy, but make it available in such large chunks that it becomes difficult to work with in Civil 3D.

If your intention is to clip these large public terrains down to a size that fits your project, clip it with QGIS and then add it to Civil 3D. You can also change the resolution in the same step that exports the geotiff.

Best regards,

Tim

Re: C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

Neilw_05 — Tue, 25 Apr 2017 17:10:54 GMT

I've installed QGIS and experimented a little with it. It does read the datasets so I think this is going to work. This looks like it will be a very handy tool.

Thanks Tim!

Re: C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

Anonymous — Wed, 26 Apr 2017 10:25:35 GMT

Hi Neil/ Tim

Do you think, it is not a step backward from CD2018? It is really useful can work with different point clouds in the same project managing from Toolspace. Besides, if you are working with drone data taking monthly quantities, you could upgrade your surface dynamically only be updating the point database every month. Now, this workflow is no longer more. With Recap, will be necessary to create new surfaces every time you upgrade your data.

Thanks.

Re: C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

Anonymous — Wed, 26 Apr 2017 12:44:34 GMT

Yes, this seems like a step backward. Especially if Recap can import some of the common formats used in Civil that we used to be able to import

Re: C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

Neilw_05 — Wed, 26 Apr 2017 15:03:54 GMT

I am not happy with the latest workflow. Recap does not support the National GIS dataset formats so we have to use at least 2 applications to get the data into C3D if we use Recap. I will look for an application that can do the transformations and filtering, then export to a format C3D supports and skip the Recap step altogether. For this purpose I was using the "Cloud Compare" app but I discovered it does not support the Nation Map datasets either. Hopefully QGIS can handle the task. I haven't had time to study it yet.

Re: C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

BlackBox_ — Fri, 12 May 2017 06:55:52 GMT

ReCap is not a professional tool, suitable for design professionals (at least not yet).

Never mind that ReCap requires cloudy credits to render photos in 'ultra megazord' quality in order to even download RCS file to be able to import into Civil 3D (when preview quality would be perfectly sufficient, takes exponentially less time, and requires no cloudy credits)... ReCap exporting to desired file format is in no way dependent on what level of detail the Point Cloud is rendered, and Autodesk darn well knows it... ReCap only supports Meters (not US Survey Feet?), which means we have to manually convert FT to M when entering survey settings during photo stitch, but also manually scale up the imported RCS file in kind, as Civil 3D Imperial session means nothing to Point Cloud Object Properties.

Further, one must remember to manually scale the ReCap Point Cloud BEFORE a Surface is derived, as scaling former after the fact has no dynamic change on the latter (which is sort of the point of using Civil 3D; dynamic relationships, no?).

I have access to ReCap through Infrastructure Deaign Suite (IDSP), yet have to spend supplemental cloudy credits in order to even download a file format that Civil 3D will accept - this is complete BS, as I require neither that level of detail, and the process to render at the higher 'ultra megazord' quality takes longer to render than it does for my survey crew to take actual TOPO (we tested some stockpiles this/last week, doing each manually getting TOPO, and GoPro photos, comparing volumes, times needed by crew and post-process, etc).

I'm deeply disappointed that Autodesk is removing useful functionality from Civil 3D, and introducing less efficient required steps to yield the same results.

This is counterproductive, it's counterintuitive, and the sort of backwards thinking that's going to make a lot of new BricsCAD + Transoft Site CEM customers.

This malarkey is the biggest disappointment of Civil 3D 2018 (for me), and not something I recall ever being announced during beta (perhaps I missed it?). We will not use tools that are web-dependent with our customer's data, as Autodesk accepts no responsibility, and provides us no security; therefore not acceptable per company policy, nor common sense productivity when internet line gets cut during construction down the road (happened twice this year already), etc

Add this to growing list of why we're never going to give up our Maintenance plan for Subscription.

All that said, QGIS is a great tool, and able to access ArcGIS GDB which is what I've needed it for previously (albeit rare I need to do that).

Cheers

Re: C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

Neilw_05 — Fri, 12 May 2017 15:16:25 GMT

The Infraworks to Recap to C3D workflow is nonsense. There are tools available to handle all of the pre-processing requirements in one package and far more efficiently. Until things improve we'll resort to another solution.

Re: C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

TerryDotson — Sat, 13 May 2017 22:36:18 GMT

... not happy with the latest workflow. Recap does not support National GIS formats (Grid, Float & IMG) ...

And it shouldn't. Trying to shove a GRID into Recap is like shoving an orange into an apple peeler and complaining about it. Download LAS (unordered points) from the USGS and Recap will be happy to digest it.

If you're sticking with grids, download the ArcGrid format and Civil3D should create a DEM directly from the contained ADF file. Make sure your machine has adequate resources as in lots of RAM and mostly lots of (fast drive) temp file space.

Re: C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

Anonymous — Sat, 13 May 2017 22:36:54 GMT

Hey guys !
I agree 100% with your comments . Recap and Infraworks are not yet professional tool to support C3D. I'm disappointed with the new 2018 version because they removed Point of clouds from the toolspace . I think between all of us that we working directly with this civil 3D tool , should report this fact . CD2018 is still a beta version and they might consider to put back this tool.
My work is focused to get quantities from drone data . Now with Recap it is imposible the workflow with big data.
I performed a video comparing both option Recap and Point of clouds . I encourage tou to watch..

https://youtu.be/IzZt9UtMAbM

Re: C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

Neilw_05 — Thu, 01 Jun 2017 16:38:43 GMT

Hi Terry,

I just re-read your comment. I don't see LAS format data available for our area (Northern Arizona) via the National Map. Do you know of other LAS sources we can access?

As for your comment about importing grid files directly into a surface definition, as I mentioned in my initial post, that workflow does not allow filtering to reduce the size of the dataset.

Re: C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

snoyolar_ddscad — Sun, 09 Jul 2017 23:34:59 GMT

Hi to all,

I want to share my workaround Create Surfaces From Point Cloud Data in Civil 3d 2018

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTJjUygfJq0&feature=youtu.be

Simon Noyola Rivero
Application Engineer
Down to Earth Technologies, Inc.
Autodesk Authorized Consultant
Subject Matter Expert Civil&Map
Civil 3D Country kit development
para: Mexico, Central America, Caribbean & Venezuela
https://www.youtube.com/user/snoyolar

Re: C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

TerryDotson — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 01:07:04 GMT

A potentially similar (don't understand Spanish so I don't know) step-by-step process in text from a few weeks ago.

Re: C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

tcorey — Mon, 21 Aug 2017 20:40:11 GMT

No one in this thread has mentioned Global Mapper + Lidar module by Blue Marble. It's around $1,000.00 for both programs and well worth it for point cloud (and many other mapping) applications.

Re: C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

TerryDotson — Tue, 22 Aug 2017 13:29:58 GMT

Civil3D users don't want to jump through hoops with any other software, they want the product they purchased to do the job !!! They don't even want to jump through the Recap hoop and they shouldn't have to. The previous recent versions worked by allowing them to create surfaces directly from Lidar data and filter that by classification. Just because (it appears) the AmberCore deal went south they had to remove the classification grid?

And why not allow additional filtering by area of interest (select a polyline) elevation min/max, and more. Anything that can minimize the data burden. And if the datum for the lidar isn't in the coordinate system of the drawing, project it for the user, don't make them jump through more hoops inside the software.

If I can code this stuff in a few hours there is simply no excuse for Civil3D not to do it. Fire some bean counters and lobbyists and hire some real programmers who (A) know how to write code and (B) understand the problem. But not me.

Re: C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

BlackBox_ — Tue, 22 Aug 2017 13:46:56 GMT

@TerryDotson wrote:

Civil3D users don't want to jump through hoops with any other software, they want the product they purchased to do the job !!! They don't even want to jump through the Recap hoop and they shouldn't have to. The previous recent versions worked by allowing them to create surfaces directly from Lidar data and filter that by classification. Just because (it appears) the AmberCore deal went south they had to remove the classification grid?

And why not allow additional filtering by area of interest (select a polyline) elevation min/max, and more. Anything that can minimize the data burden. And if the datum for the lidar isn't in the coordinate system of the drawing, project it for the user, don't make them jump through more hoops inside the software.

If I can code this stuff in a few hours there is simply no excuse for Civil3D not to do it. Fire some bean counters and lobbyists and hire some real programmers who (A) know how to write code and (B) understand the problem. But not me.

@TerryDotson - You are my effing hero right now.

Nobody responsible for using or administrating Civil 3D in a daily plans production / survey environment would ever come up with such a 'dumb' solution for what is supposed to be a 'smart' application. Whoever approved this counterproductive change needs a Leroy Jethro Gibbs slap to the back of the head.

Cheers

Re: C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

Anonymous — Thu, 24 Aug 2017 06:55:34 GMT

Terry,
100 % Agree with you. In fact, in my opinion, they are becoming Civil 3D in a minor software. I think Autodesk's guys don't know the workflow from drone data or this is my feeling. We don't need 2 or 3 new software to make something that older version did. Infraworks can manage point of cloud from scanners and can be classified, but not like Civil 3d do.

Besides, I don't know why they want to introduce Infraworks along with Civil 3d when everybody knows Infrawork is not a software yet as developed as Civil 3D.

Re: C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

Anonymous — Thu, 05 Oct 2017 00:21:22 GMT

Funny,

I literally just posted in the Civil 3d Forum. We just updated, and this is just stupid. Took me three hours to get a surface that used to take me 20 minutes. Plus, I doubt it is usable. 500 mb PLUS another 500mb MMS file or something. Just a massive waste of time.

My thinking is they want us to use Cloud Credits so they can bill us, but my data is already classified.

2018 is getting me angry!

Re: C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

cromo23 — Thu, 05 Oct 2017 00:23:40 GMT

I cannot believe how backward this C3D 2018 version has gone.

Point Cloud import was a huge benefit in our company,

especially when we're fighting to keep it with internal competition with

12d and Mapinfo users being hired over autocad users

very disappointing, we'll never get Recap

Re: C3D 2018 Create Point Cloud no longer supported?

TerryDotson — Thu, 05 Oct 2017 13:29:34 GMT

Since my reply above, there is a possible solution for many with this Civil3D: Lidar Straight To TinSurface.