topic Re: Rail Cant Example. Not possible to override the parameter values in the curv in Civil 3D Forum

Rail Cant Example. Not possible to override the parameter values in the curved

durasovartyom — Wed, 29 Nov 2017 09:30:53 GMT

Good afternoon.

We decided to ask you for help and answers.

The following serious question and problem arose:
I'm creating a design subassembly for the design railway of the AutoCAD Civil 3D 2017-2018.

By opening your Rail_Cant_Example.pkt examples from the Subassembly_Composer_Sample_PKT_Files_Release_2018 folder, which are located at the following link https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/autocad-civil-3d/downloads/caas/downloads/content/sample-pkt-files-for-the-autodesk-subassembly-composer-for-autodesk-autocad-civil-3d-2018.html

The following question arose:
Why, when creating a corridor from this design, in the curved section of the railway track, it is not possible to change the parameters of this design in the curved section of the path. Calculation of rails elevation is made.

Also opened an example of the design of RailDoubleTrack.pkt the same situation. It is not possible to override the parameter values in the Corridor section editor, specifically for the railroad type, in the curved section of the path. And in a straight line there is this possibility.
And for the RailSingle design http://help.autodesk.com/view/CIV3D/2017/ENU/?guid=GUID-B2B2A0C1-2F62-4DFF-8A50-E59AEBFACDA6 this feature is available.

How to create the same design in Autodesk Subassembly Composer, in which will be possible to override the parameter values in the section editor of the corridor, specifically for the type of construction of the railway, in the curved section of the path?

Screecast:

http://autode.sk/2hXwjPE

http://autode.sk/2ifM1cu

Re: Rail Cant Example. Not possible to override the parameter values in the curv

KMercier_C3D — Wed, 29 Nov 2017 22:32:52 GMT

Unfortunately SAC and cant rarely get along. I'm guessing this is a quick
that is unfixable in the current version of SAC.

As a proof-of-concept I've been fiddling around with the stock Civil3D
RailSingle subassembly making that into a pkt file that can handle cant
without using the applyAOR or cant API functions (and therefore work as you
are asking), however I will admit I know nothing about cant or railway. Can
someone who uses rail and cant help me with this knowledge:

1. In the Cant View is the Applied Cant at the upper inside point of the
rail (where gauge width is also applied) or top center of rail?

2. What is the most common pivot method if I was to make it only handle
only either center or high/low side in my first proof of concept?

3. I see in RailSingle that the rail is hard inputted values. Are these
standard? Would they ever need to be Input Parameters instead?

4. How does the Rail Slope input parameter and cant interact? Is it one or
the other or is cant compounded onto the rail slope?

5. Does can't effect the ballast slope or subballast slope at all or do
those stay independent of the can't slope?

Re: Rail Cant Example. Not possible to override the parameter values in the curv

durasovartyom — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 11:39:07 GMT

Good afternoon, @KMercier_C3D!
Thank you for the answer!

2. low side

Re: Rail Cant Example. Not possible to override the parameter values in the curv

durasovartyom — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 11:47:41 GMT

Re: Rail Cant Example. Not possible to override the parameter values in the curv

KMercier_C3D — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 14:21:25 GMT

These are all very helpful! I will need to look at these more carefully to make sure that I am setting up the pkt in a way that is usable.

In the very first image you shared in your first reply (same image as in answer.pdf), is d=Ca?

Re: Rail Cant Example. Not possible to override the parameter values in the curv

durasovartyom — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 14:45:00 GMT

KMercier_C3D написано:

These are all very helpful! I will need to look at these more carefully to make sure that I am setting up the pkt in a way that is usable.

In the very first image you shared in your first reply (same image as in answer.pdf), is d=Ca?

Yes -
d=Ca = h

Re: Rail Cant Example. Not possible to override the parameter values in the curv

durasovartyom — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 14:58:25 GMT

I found a very useful reference.

Materials in the enclosure

LFLSRM-Fundamentals-of-Railway-Curve-Superelevation-current

Re: Rail Cant Example. Not possible to override the parameter values in the curv

KMercier_C3D — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 17:34:15 GMT

Is ballast shoulder measured aligned with the cant slope or horizontally?
When there is no cant, does the ballast shoulder have no slope?
Is subballast shoulder measures aligned with the subballst slope or horizontally?
Is the sleeper depth measure vertically or perpendicular to the cant slope?
Where is the ballast depth measured at and is it a vertical dimension?
Is the subballast depth measured perpendicular to the subballast slope or vertically?
Is the cant deflection (Ca, d, h) measured from the track width location (center of rails) or the gauge width (inside dimension between top of rails?
Which is more commonly defined as an input parameter: track width or gauge width?

Re: Rail Cant Example. Not possible to override the parameter values in the curv

durasovartyom — Mon, 04 Dec 2017 06:54:46 GMT

Good afternoon, @KMercier_C3D!

1. Ballast measured - horizontally.

2. Yes.

3. Horizontally.

4. Vertically.

6. Vertically.

8. track width

Re: Rail Cant Example. Not possible to override the parameter values in the curv

KMercier_C3D — Mon, 04 Dec 2017 14:22:50 GMT

All right, attached is version 1.0 of the rail cant pkt file that I made. As I mentioned earlier, I was trying to avoid using the SAC cant because it seems to be causing the issues. Therefore this subassembly does take a few extra steps than normal so maybe it won't be as efficient for your workflow but if/when the cant starts working better in SAC then this pkt file should be easily revise-able to just change the "Cant Calculation" flowchart element and remove the need for targeting the Ca values and everything else should remain functional.

The extra steps that this subassembly requires are that you would make your Rail alignment per normal and run the Cant Wizard per normal (unless that is something you can calculate by hand or in a different application) and note down what all the cant values area and then (this is where the extra steps are!) you need to make another alignment on the exact same location and set it as a Centerline alignment instead of a Rail alignment and then make two new profiles along the alignment that defines the cant deflection for the left and right rails (these profiles are NOT elevation but instead represent the delta elevation, Ca, just like in a Cant View). Next, when you make your corridor you will need to target this Centerline alignment and its left and right profiles. (Note that for a center pivot this would simplify to one profile, either the left or the right as the other could be inferred from only defining one.) .... If you did not want to use the Parameter Editor in the cant areas you could use this same method with the left and right profiles and not need to make a Centerline alignment. For some unknown to me reason the Parameter Editor does not seem to work in cant areas with the pkt files even if you don't need to reference the cant (unless there is something I'm missing...)

Here is some images of the procedure:

Create left cant profile (Profile->Profile Creation Tools) and insert PVI's tabular

Create right cant profile (Profile->Profile Creation Tools) and insert PVI's tabular

You should now have the original cant view and a profile view showing the cant:

Now insert the attached rail pkt file and make an assembly from it and set your default input parameters:

Now when you make your corridor you need to target your Cant Delta Profiles in order to obtain the cant data:

[In the attached .dwg file I have the Cant profiles on both the rail alignment and the centerline alignment because I was testing to see which would work better. If I am correct that using the rail alignment for the corridor prevents the use of the Parameter Editor then those two profiles could be deleted from that alignment to prevent confusion. There is of course some loss of dynamic-ness from this method as if you rerun the cant wizard you would need to remember to also change the values in your two cant profiles.]

Re: Rail Cant Example. Not possible to override the parameter values in the curv

durasovartyom — Tue, 05 Dec 2017 06:47:32 GMT

Good afternoon, @KMercier_C3D!

Thank you for supporting and helping on such an important issue!
A lot of interesting moments for myself I saw.
I am glad to cooperate with you!

Re: Rail Cant Example. Not possible to override the parameter values in the curv

KMercier_C3D — Tue, 05 Dec 2017 13:00:39 GMT

@durasovartyom, I am glad to cooperate with you as well. It is a fun challenge and taught me things about rail that I've never known before. It is funny that you comment about that error in how the sleeper is shaped as I had it that shape/angle originally and then based on some of the images you shared and your response to #4 of my lastest set of questions I changed it to measure (and align the edge) of the sleeper vertically instead of perpendicular to the cant slope. Even with the edge perpendicular to the cant slope is the dimension still measure along that tilted edge or is it supposed to be vertically as you had answered?

Re: Rail Cant Example. Not possible to override the parameter values in the curv

CivilFlow — Tue, 19 Jun 2018 15:07:05 GMT

Thank you both for this wonderful thread!