topic Re: 3D Designs - Data Shortcuts - Sheet Files in Civil 3D Forum

3D Designs - Data Shortcuts - Sheet Files

branden.battig — Thu, 06 Feb 2020 14:45:19 GMT

What is the best workflow for using data shortcuts and sheet files? I have worked with several different consultants and am curious about what the community thinks... What is the best workflow?

3D Design File.dwg --> Datashortcut to a "2D Verison" for Labeling and XRef --> Xref to Sheet file for Plotting

3D Design File.dwg --> Datashortcut straight to a sheet file for Labeling and Plotting

Any other information or references would be great. Thank you!

Re: 3D Designs - Data Shortcuts - Sheet Files

CivilFlow — Tue, 11 Feb 2020 15:51:08 GMT

HI @branden.battig,

For large plan sets we typically DREF 3D Civil objects from "Design files to dedicated XREFs for annotation and inclusion into the formal sheet set. For smaller projects, we DREF from the design files straight into the sheets. For a multi-team environment, it is best to follow the first workflow in my opinion.

I hope this helps.

Re: 3D Designs - Data Shortcuts - Sheet Files

Joe-Bouza — Tue, 11 Feb 2020 16:33:41 GMT

I prefer to go strat to the sheet file. Although and xref is created for others to reference. Definately do not put in an xref annd dref to sheet.

I have no white paper or best practice guide but I am certain that doing that is a resource killer

Re: 3D Designs - Data Shortcuts - Sheet Files

CivilFlow — Tue, 11 Feb 2020 17:15:56 GMT

"Definately do not put in an xref annd dref to sheet"

With all due respect, no one (including me) said to do it that way Joe. XREFs that have DREFs are not a resource killer...if anything they help structure a plan set in a manner where multiple people can be engaged to complete the project, while keeping the "working" design files totally separate from the formal sheet set files.

Putting all DREFs into a single plan sheet, means only one person at a time can edit the civil objects that live in the sheet. That seems like a resource killer to me. Its fine if you're a one person shop I guess.

Re: 3D Designs - Data Shortcuts - Sheet Files

Joe-Bouza — Tue, 11 Feb 2020 17:16:09 GMT

Look to what the application designer did with Plan production tools it puts the the data ref in the sheet file

Re: 3D Designs - Data Shortcuts - Sheet Files

Joe-Bouza — Tue, 11 Feb 2020 17:29:03 GMT

I was not trying to imply that you or anyone else recommnded doing that Mike.

Just pointing out the pitfall of doing so. Unfortunately when we (as in users)add data refs to an xref the possibility and probability increases that some user will end up doing just that.

"Putting all DREFs into a single plan sheet, means only one person at a time can edit the civil objects that live in the sheet. "

I think we are using different definition DS= civil3d object file, Dref= referenced civil3d object.

The dref references the DS (shortcut) from a separate source drawing. I'm not saying create the DS in the sheet. I'm saying reference it in.

Re: 3D Designs - Data Shortcuts - Sheet Files

CivilFlow — Tue, 11 Feb 2020 17:40:47 GMT

Yep I have found that tool to be completely inefficient...the Sheet Creation tool is un-dynamic (meaning once you make a simple change to the alignment, it has to be re-created). Additionally, that tool creates a single dwg with multiple layouts where only one person can work with it. It is nice that it creates a .dst file for you, but beyond that, it doesn't help in a dynamic design situation with a multi-CADD team environment.

Again it is fine if your alignment doesn't change and there is only one person that needs to work on the project.

Re: 3D Designs - Data Shortcuts - Sheet Files

CivilFlow — Tue, 11 Feb 2020 17:44:55 GMT

Hi Joe,

Yes it sounds like we're saying the same thing...sorry for the confusion. When I say "DREF" I mean a Data Shortcut. I thought you "DREF" in a Data Shortcut from the source design file to the sheet set or XREF dwg, so I may misuse the term DREF...I just call all data shortcuts DREFs or I use the term to describe importing a data shortcut as a "DREF" too, so I apologize for the confusion.

Re: 3D Designs - Data Shortcuts - Sheet Files

jae.kwon — Tue, 11 Feb 2020 18:20:04 GMT

Drawing setup structure will depend on the size of the project and its requirements.... but generally, for medium to large projects where organization structure start making a real impact:

- Do your design in design drawings. Here you can have design oriented styles (e.g. corridor code set style with the links on), profile views that are not split up, section views organized in draft style, have all sorts of important design notes, guide lines, etc. Have multiple design drawings for different things if necessary (e.g. grading only drawing, since grading is notoriously unstable)

- Use data shortcuts to put it all together into a presentation drawing, using presentation styles. This drawing doesn't have any of the design notes, sketches, etc. Profiles are split up for sheet views, and section views are layed out based on sheet templates. If you prefer to have one sheet drawing per layout then you might want to setup different presentation drawings depending on its purpose (road sheets, pipe sheets, etc).

- Xref the presentation drawing into individual sheets, and add sheet specific labels there (e.g. road geometry labels for road drawing, pipe labels for pipe drawing, etc). Add viewport specific annotation on paper space of individual layouts.

Keep in mind the following goals to keep drawing handling speed fast and maintain high efficiency going back and forth between design updating and plotting 1) avoid flipping styles all the time 2) avoid having to freeze/unfreeze things, especially VP freezes and 3) keep the number of dynamic labels to a minimum on any given drawing because they are the #1 source of drawing slow down. Data shortcuts achieve all of that.

Where xrefs are handy, for design elements, is for letting you get away with doing less setups of dref'd parts. For instance, you can dref in the alignment, profile and corridor, setup some profile views and section views for sheets, then just xref this into individual sheet drawings so that if you have 10 road layouts you only have to do the setup once, not 10 times. And it forces you to stay consistent between sheets.

The TLDR version: Design DWG ----Dref----> Presentation DWG ----Xref----> Sheet DWG, and plot/etransmit with sheet set.

Re: 3D Designs - Data Shortcuts - Sheet Files

Joe-Bouza — Tue, 11 Feb 2020 18:53:56 GMT

Hi Mike

the application designer assumed you were 100 done before creating sheets. the opposite of what most people do. at least for me creating the sheets is the first thing to happen on a job.

take another look at the wizard. It give options to create all layouts in same file , individual layouts and files or any number of layouts per file

Re: 3D Designs - Data Shortcuts - Sheet Files

CivilFlow — Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:38:36 GMT

Thanks Joe. That option does make me warm up to the tool. Clearly a time saver if everything is 100%.

Another option CTC has come up with in their suite attempts to improve on the Sheet Creation process. Looks pretty handy, although the suite is pricey. Please see short webcast:

Re: 3D Designs - Data Shortcuts - Sheet Files

Neilw_05 — Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:45:07 GMT

I think the consensus in the forums is to not XREF a file that has DREF's. It seems the developers have in mind that you build the models with C3D objects and DREF them into your sheets for styling and annotation. That way you can manipulate the labels for conflicts, adjust the styles etc. in the context of the sheets. You are not limited to putting all layouts in one file. The plan production tools give the option to put the layouts in separate files or in batches of X layouts per file. This workflow allows for teams to work on the files independently. Some can be working on the models, others on sheets. The dref's are shared in the models but not XREF'd.

While this workflow seems like a good approach it does have some major issues. For one you can't have any non-C3D objects or annotations in the 3D model files since they don't get propagated to the sheets via XREF. Thus you end up having to create a 2D static base drawing for all those graphics. To keep it synchronized with the 3D models you have to shortcut the models, update the graphics and then remove the shortcut objects so they don't end up being XREF'd. This workflow is what is recommended by ATG.

I am not sold on this workflow for many reasons so I looking for more efficient ideas.

I am still evaluating workflows.

Re: 3D Designs - Data Shortcuts - Sheet Files

Neilw_05 — Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:50:43 GMT

BY the way, if you are not using the plan production tools to cut your sheets, are you then having to manually set up your sheets, aligning xrefs to the viewports?

Re: 3D Designs - Data Shortcuts - Sheet Files

CivilFlow — Tue, 11 Feb 2020 20:09:49 GMT

Hi @Neilw_05

"I think the consensus in the forums is to not XREF a file that has DREF's. It seems the developers have in mind that you build the models with C3D objects and DREF them into your sheets for styling and annotation. That way you can manipulate the labels for conflicts, adjust the styles etc. in the context of the sheets."

I can understand this workflow up to a point, but you can do the same thing with an XREF. The recommended workflow above requires you to annotate all C3D objects separately in each sheet, which can be quite a laborious task and redundant for large plan sets. You can annotate C3D objects that are DREFs through an XREF, so whether you choose to annotate them in the sheet or via an XREF, you have the choice.

There are times where a single XREF (with a data shortcut) can be advantageous, for example a Pipe Network. In this example, an XREF setup with a DREF to the design pipe network can be attached to the formal sheet set sheets where necessary and you can annotate away based on how the formal sheet is set up....the core structure and pipe geometry is maintained and can serve any number of purposes. Another example is for background existing topography. Having that surface as a DREF in an XREF gives greater flexibility in my opinion...you can annotate it in the XREF or through the formal sheets, create profiles from it, and can create Xclips to reduce regen time, etc.

Anyway, there are plenty of options here. My key point is to structure the plan set in a manner to engage a collaborative team environment that can adapt to design changes. The current sheet production tools do help in some respects, but fall short of being helpful in a dynamic design environment in my opinion...to much rework.

The CTC Suite seems to try to address these shortcomings with the OOTB tool.

Re: 3D Designs - Data Shortcuts - Sheet Files

CivilFlow — Tue, 11 Feb 2020 20:14:00 GMT

BY the way, if you are not using the plan production tools to cut your sheets, are you then having to manually set up your sheets, aligning xrefs to the viewports?

I use the tool to get me started sure. 85% the time, alignments change during the design, which inevitably means rework, but yes you're right the tool helps to get me started, so I use where I can. My point is, the Sheet Production tool hasn't had a meaningful revamp in years and doesn't allow for design changes.

Re: 3D Designs - Data Shortcuts - Sheet Files

Joe-Bouza — Tue, 11 Feb 2020 21:28:05 GMT

Hi Neil

I was reading your post regarding the static elements and recall you had brought this up before. I just had an interesting idea and wonder how hard it would be.

set up the 2d static xref and use Map queries into you civil3d design file, make adjustments , additions deletions and then save back with map?

In reality the 2d base statice would never need to be opened

Re: 3D Designs - Data Shortcuts - Sheet Files

Neilw_05 — Tue, 11 Feb 2020 21:37:06 GMT

Interesting idea Joe. Never gave it a thought. I'm a little leary about using Map queries to make changes and save back as I have rarely used it that way and don't know if there any gotchas. Probably would be ok. It's not a big deal to load and detach shortcuts as needed too...well as long as people remember to detach.

One Kudo for that idea.

Re: 3D Designs - Data Shortcuts - Sheet Files

Neilw_05 — Tue, 11 Feb 2020 21:47:21 GMT

Generally our baselines don't change enough to warrant re-cutting the sheets. I don't use the C3D matchlines though because they get off station and are a hassle. I'll just tweak the view ports as needed. I'm not keen on the idea of building and annotating the sheet layouts out of context. Overall the plan production tools save a lot of work for us.

Yes you can annotate C3D objects through XREFs but you can't change the styles of the objects. That is one of the roles of DREF's. In one file a pipe can be shown as full width, in another they can be lines. Surfaces can be displayed with different contour intervals, etc. You know how it works.

One of my biggest complaints about the DREF workflow is you have to reassemble the profile views in the sheet files. All the pipes have to be added, overrides applied to crossings, manual drafting of non C3D objects have to be re-done, etc. I don't want to go back to the Land Desktop approach where you align viewports over the profiles though. That was a lot of tedious work.

Re: 3D Designs - Data Shortcuts - Sheet Files

Neilw_05 — Thu, 13 Feb 2020 06:48:24 GMT

There is a significant deficiency in this middle xref with drefs into the sheets workflow. You can never be sure the sheets are current because the drefs are not in the sheets. You would have to open the reference files first to get them synchronized every time you need to print. That can have severe consequences if overlooked. Drefs are not designed be used that way.

Re: 3D Designs - Data Shortcuts - Sheet Files

branden.battig — Thu, 13 Feb 2020 12:48:49 GMT

So what do you suggest? DREF into sheet files?