topic North Arrow orientation in AutoCAD Forum

North Arrow orientation

Anonymous — Wed, 21 Apr 2004 18:42:26 GMT

Hello All, Does anybody know if there is ANSI (or other) standard for orienting the North Arrow. I've always been taught, formally and informally that id should always point up or to the right or any angle in between. Where can I find documentation to support this? Thanks for the help, RCM

Re: North Arrow orientation

Anonymous — Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:43:22 GMT

> Does anybody know if there is ANSI (or other) standard for orienting the > North Arrow. I've always been taught, formally and informally that id should > always point up or to the right or any angle in between. This has been beaten to death at least once, though I can't find the thread now. As far as I know, there isn't a universal rule on this. If you're trying to win an argument, you might eventually find some rule that covers your specific discipline, but I'm quite sure there isn't any law that covers all drafting. I've been practicing architecture for about 25 years, and every set of building plans I've ever seen have been squared up with the sheet, with the front of the building at the bottom of the sheet. Nobody cares where north is. If an arrow is included, for orientation on a large project, it nearly always shows true north vs "plan" north -- so that the elevations can be labeled north, south, etc even though they aren't exactly oriented that way. The contrary school of thought comes from surveyors or mapmakers, who aren't drawing anything but undeveloped ground. Some of them will tell you that north "MUST" be straight up in all cases. But my buddy the highway engineer says he's never seen engineering drawings for a highway done that way -- they're drawn with north generally pointing to the upper right, as you say, and the sheet aligned to that section of road. It depends on your discipline. If you're drawing a map, people expect north to be up. If you're drawing man-made objects like buildings, people expect the object to determine the orientation, with no regard at all to where north is. You don't draw the object that you're designing all cockeyed just because of compass directions. You draw it to fit on the sheet nicely and -- mainly -- to be understandable. On large scale built developments, the normal practice is to orient whatever is the major axis of the development -- usually the principal highway -- horizontally on the sheet, with the "entrance" to the development at the bottom. If that puts north pointing down, so be it.

Re: North Arrow orientation

Anonymous — Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:46:56 GMT

i set orientation to hold the dominant base line (usually a R.O.W.) at 0 degrees, unless otherwise dictated by local codes. Practicality supersedes convention - in this case. YMMV "Ron C" wrote in message news:4086c093$1_3@newsprd01... > Hello All, > > Does anybody know if there is ANSI (or other) standard for orienting the > North Arrow. I've always been taught, formally and informally that id should > always point up or to the right or any angle in between. > > Where can I find documentation to support this? > > Thanks for the help, > > RCM > >

Re: North Arrow orientation

Anonymous — Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:16:59 GMT

There is no ANSI requirement. However, the usual treatment is to show the building/structure aligned with the drawing(s) and true north oriented accordingly in reference to the building/structure, such as the attached.

Re: North Arrow orientation

Anonymous — Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:21:52 GMT

As someone working in Surveying I would agree with your friend. Mostly up and right unless there is an overriding reason for another orientation. Also with highway work you usually have stationing increasing to the right. That can sometimes conflict with the up/right rule. I wish your were correct about Surveyors only drawing undeveloped ground. around 80% of my time locating and drawing existing features. At someplace like the Bronx Zoo that can get complicated. North up the page for Cartography is mainly so the users can orient themselves quickly. Allen "Tom Smith" wrote in message news:4086ceda$1_1@newsprd01... > > Does anybody know if there is ANSI (or other) standard for orienting the > > North Arrow. I've always been taught, formally and informally that id > should > > always point up or to the right or any angle in between. > > This has been beaten to death at least once, though I can't find the thread > now. > > As far as I know, there isn't a universal rule on this. If you're trying to > win an argument, you might eventually find some rule that covers your > specific discipline, but I'm quite sure there isn't any law that covers all > drafting. > > I've been practicing architecture for about 25 years, and every set of > building plans I've ever seen have been squared up with the sheet, with the > front of the building at the bottom of the sheet. Nobody cares where north > is. If an arrow is included, for orientation on a large project, it nearly > always shows true north vs "plan" north -- so that the elevations can be > labeled north, south, etc even though they aren't exactly oriented that way. > > The contrary school of thought comes from surveyors or mapmakers, who aren't > drawing anything but undeveloped ground. Some of them will tell you that > north "MUST" be straight up in all cases. But my buddy the highway engineer > says he's never seen engineering drawings for a highway done that way -- > they're drawn with north generally pointing to the upper right, as you say, > and the sheet aligned to that section of road. > > It depends on your discipline. If you're drawing a map, people expect north > to be up. If you're drawing man-made objects like buildings, people expect > the object to determine the orientation, with no regard at all to where > north is. You don't draw the object that you're designing all cockeyed just > because of compass directions. You draw it to fit on the sheet nicely and -- > mainly -- to be understandable. > > On large scale built developments, the normal practice is to orient whatever > is the major axis of the development -- usually the principal highway -- > horizontally on the sheet, with the "entrance" to the development at the > bottom. If that puts north pointing down, so be it. > >

Re: North Arrow orientation

Anonymous — Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:11:22 GMT

No offense intended. In my field most of the "surveys" I see are bare sites, the drawings you describe would be included in what I'd call development drawings, i.e. the existing conditions.

Re: North Arrow orientation

Anonymous — Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:49:54 GMT

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:42:26 -0400, "Ron C" wrote: >Hello All, > >Does anybody know if there is ANSI (or other) standard for orienting the >North Arrow. I've always been taught, formally and informally that id should >always point up or to the right or any angle in between. > >Where can I find documentation to support this? I would be surprised if this is the case. The convention taught here in Australia is that north should generally point to the top or LEFT of the page. This is so that text can be read right way up as text should generally flow horizontally left to right or vertically bottom to top. The one exception I have come across is for things like evacuation plans where the entry of the building or site is at the bottom or right and you move into the building or site bottom to top, or right to left respectively, irrespective of the direction of north.

Re: North Arrow orientation

jackshield — Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:52:01 GMT

I point mine north?

Re: North Arrow orientation

Anonymous — Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:42:06 GMT

"Ian A. White" wrote in message news:cpqd80tdpqgarjollbnue2j4qdpg4c5vvv@4ax.com... > On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:42:26 -0400, "Ron C" > wrote: > > >Hello All, > > > >Does anybody know if there is ANSI (or other) standard for orienting the > >North Arrow. I've always been taught, formally and informally that id should > >always point up or to the right or any angle in between. > > > >Where can I find documentation to support this? > > I would be surprised if this is the case. The convention taught here in > Australia is that north should generally point to the top or LEFT of the > page. This is so that text can be read right way up as text should > generally flow horizontally left to right or vertically bottom to top. > Thats the way I was taught. For the same reason you indicated as well as plans being bound on the left. Of course I'm in surveying, so north is instinctively up. I've only seen a few prints in my career with north pointing down. I guess some people can't orient themselves on the ground unless the plans are just the way they are standing. It always reminds me of a friend of mine who, when following a street map, has to keep turning it around every corner to orient himself. {:-o ____ Tom

Re: North Arrow orientation

Anonymous — Wed, 21 Apr 2004 23:17:14 GMT

Go to http://discussion.autodesk.com/index2.jspa?categoryID=22. Put in "North arrow" with out the "" as search words and take a look at all the past conversations on this subject. --- Anne Brown Discussion Groups Administrator Autodesk, Inc. Ron C wrote: > > Hello All, > > Does anybody know if there is ANSI (or other) standard for orienting the > North Arrow. (snip)

Re: North Arrow orientation

Anonymous — Thu, 22 Apr 2004 06:16:10 GMT

Made me laugh to read your question.... A year or so ago, there was a major conversation here about that very subject. I was taught to make North either Up or to the LEFT. pointing it to the right is like pointing it down when the paper is turned to portrait position. There seemed to me last time around that there is no set law that it has to be this or that. At least none that will get you sent to jail without passing Go. I have an architect friend who insists that North always should point in the direction of the entry or front door. His view is that contractors are a stupid lot, and that is the only way to get them to know the correct orientation of the building to North. Maybe he once had an experience where the the building was built backwards. Another friend agrees with me about up and to the left. I have found others who agree with my first friend about pointing it toward the entry direction. Jack Talsky "Ron C" wrote in message news:4086c093$1_3@newsprd01... > Hello All, > > Does anybody know if there is ANSI (or other) standard for orienting the > North Arrow. I've always been taught, formally and informally that id should > always point up or to the right or any angle in between. > > Where can I find documentation to support this? > > Thanks for the help, > > RCM > >

Re: North Arrow orientation

Anonymous — Thu, 22 Apr 2004 06:20:48 GMT

If I remember correctly it was long. Jack Talsky "Anne Brown" wrote in message news:408700FA.31DA1EE2@autodesk.com... > Go to http://discussion.autodesk.com/index2.jspa?categoryID=22. > Put in "North arrow" with out the "" as search words and take a > look at all the past conversations on this subject. > --- > > Anne Brown > Discussion Groups Administrator > Autodesk, Inc. > > > Ron C wrote: > > > > Hello All, > > > > Does anybody know if there is ANSI (or other) standard for orienting the > > North Arrow. (snip)

Re: North Arrow orientation

Anonymous — Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:34:29 GMT

Ditto here. The first drafting class I attended back in, geez, '67, we were instructed that North was ALWAYS UP OR TO THE LEFT. Been doing it that way ever since, although I've seen the arrow pointed in every way you can imagine.

I even drew one down once. After we'd completed the entire package, the owner decided he wanted the front door facing North instead of West. With hand drawings it was loads easier to rotate the North arrow than it was to re-draw all the building plans.

Re: North Arrow orientation

Anonymous — Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:40:15 GMT

Good old hand drawings :-) Did you go through the Pinbar Dark Ages?

Re: North Arrow orientation

Anonymous — Thu, 22 Apr 2004 15:00:01 GMT

I was disappointed that I could not find a definitive answer in my old textbooks, or even in the Architectural Graphics Standards.

The practice I was taught was to have the drawing “readable” from either the bottom or the right side of the page. Typically this means to have north pointing up, to the left, or somewhere in between. Just keep the plan clear and easy to read.

Doug Draper
Lea+Elliott, Inc.
www.leaelliott.com

Re: North Arrow orientation

Anonymous — Thu, 22 Apr 2004 15:37:41 GMT

>>Did you go through the Pinbar Dark Ages?<<

Oh yeah.... puke.

Sleeve garters, split blade inking pens, mixing my own ink, blow dryers, and razor blades for erasers.....
AAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Oh how I love CAD...
happy happy joy joy happy happy joy joy

Re: North Arrow orientation

Anonymous — Thu, 22 Apr 2004 15:50:14 GMT

Just another vote for UP and LEFT. Terry Scanlon

Re: North Arrow orientation

Anonymous — Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:53:57 GMT

Hello again, Just wanted to say thanks for all of the input. I wasn't sure if there was a "standard or not, but will agree, as long as the drawings are easy to read and logical it won't matter that much. Regards, Ron C "Anne Brown" wrote in message news:408700FA.31DA1EE2@autodesk.com... > Go to http://discussion.autodesk.com/index2.jspa?categoryID=22. > Put in "North arrow" with out the "" as search words and take a > look at all the past conversations on this subject. > --- > > Anne Brown > Discussion Groups Administrator > Autodesk, Inc. > > > Ron C wrote: > > > > Hello All, > > > > Does anybody know if there is ANSI (or other) standard for orienting the > > North Arrow. (snip)

Re: North Arrow orientation

Anonymous — Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:58:44 GMT

No offense taken. More or less just FYI. The more we know about the people we have to deal with the better. "Tom Smith" wrote in message news:4086e379$1_1@newsprd01... > No offense intended. In my field most of the "surveys" I see are bare sites, > the drawings you describe would be included in what I'd call development > drawings, i.e. the existing conditions. > >

Re: North Arrow orientation

Anonymous — Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:04:53 GMT

Actually a very good answer. In Surveying our North arrows not only point north but you're supposed to reference which north. Magnetic, True, Grid (which grid datum), or based on some reference document such as a subdivision map or deed. Shall we talk Scale? 1" = 16.5' Allen "jackshield" wrote in message news:15684898.1082584356746.JavaMail.jive@jiveforum2.autodesk.com... > I point mine north?