topic Re: How to Plot Hidden & Respect Lineweight? in AutoCAD Forum

How to Plot Hidden & Respect Lineweight?

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Feb 2018 21:30:02 GMT

I have gone around and around in circles trying to come up with a satisfactory solution for obtaining a high quality (vector, NOT raster) plot in a hidden style that will respect line weight. Basically, I can get the layout to look great in paper space, but I cannot generate a plot of what is on the screen.

I believe I am familiar with most, if not all of the plot styles and options, so please try not to insult me by asking if I have looked in my CTB file, or if I have checked the 'Plot object lineweights' box under the 'Plot options' of the 'Plot...' dialog, or what the 'Visual style' or 'Shade plot' settings of my viewport are, etc. etc. etc. ad nausea.

For testing purposes, I have a large matrix of objects in various combinations of Layer, ByLayer, and ByBlock. The test objects are composed of a line and some text contained inside a surface. These are externally referenced into model space in another file, and marked up with a revision cloud in paper space for test plotting. As an example, here's what I see on the screen in a layout tab:

Desired Plot
Yet when I plot 'Hidden' 'As Displayed' (or anything else that I have tried), I get something like this (or worse);

Obtained Plot

Does anyone have a secret that I'm not seeing? Or should I keep looking for new software?

Re: How to Plot Hidden & Respect Lineweight?

paul.stuva.tss — Wed, 14 Feb 2018 18:41:24 GMT

Hi mkulbel,

I would recommend working with your LTSCALE and PSLTSCALE variables to see if you can get the line weights to plot correctly.

It also appears you are plotting to PDF, are you using the default "DWG to PDF.pc3" file or a third party? I always recommend using the default.

Line Type Scale:

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/autocad/learn-explore/caas/sfdcarticles/sfdcarticles/LTSCALE-and-PSLTSCALE-system-variables.html

Let me know if this helps at all.

Thanks,

Paul

PPI Group, a Topcon Solutions Store

Re: How to Plot Hidden & Respect Lineweight?

Anonymous — Wed, 14 Feb 2018 19:26:01 GMT

Hello Paul,

Thanks for your note. However, I am not having difficulty with visualizing the lines, I am having difficulty getting them to plot. It looks to me that during plot production something mysterious is outright changing the line type used to depict the hidden lines. Maybe the edge settings are taking over the obscured edge settings, or the view is reverting to wire frame, or WTF?!?! Any ideas?

LayoutPlotPlot Settings

Visual Style Settings

Re: How to Plot Hidden & Respect Lineweight?

paul.stuva.tss — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 00:20:59 GMT

Definitely an override occurring somewhere. I am looking at your files right now.

I see no "non-plot" layers, either in the main DWG or the XREF, and the blocks in your XREF have no overrides I can see.

Let me get with my team and investigate.

Re: How to Plot Hidden & Respect Lineweight?

Anonymous — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 19:34:35 GMT

Hello Again Paul,

Thanks for looking into this. I think I may have stumbled onto something. It seems that in some instances plot production can (at least in part) be corrupted by the 2D Wireframe Visual Style. For example, I have a layout set to plot 'Hidden - As Displayed' according to the following Visual Style:

Layout

At the same time, my 2D Wireframe Visual Settings are as follows:

2D Wireframe Visual Style

I plot according to the following settings:

Plot Settings

I get this:

Plot

So it looks like at least one 2D Wireframe parameter is overriding the Hidden plot process. Needless to say, this behavior is not to be expected by the User! Now the question is, what other instances of cross contamination are going on?

Re: How to Plot Hidden & Respect Lineweight?

john.vellek — Tue, 20 Feb 2018 22:25:39 GMT

Hi @Anonymous,

I have seen your post and I believe I understand what you are trying to do but I am not sure that after looking at your files that I understand how you are trying to do this.

For instance, when I run HIDE in either of your drawing I can not get the same display as what you are showing in your image. in the file being Xref'd everything except the rectangles disappears and in the host file I see some dashed lines and text but certainly not what you are showing.

I exploded the block you are using in the referenced file and it appears that you have a surface that is resting over the text. I am not sure how you want the text to be hidden / not hidden in regards to the surfaces.

When I tried plotting with Legacy Hidden and using a CTB with some lightweights applied to the four colors, I get a PDF that looks like what i am seeing on my display.

I am certain that you know the ins and outs of your process but I am not quite understanding your workflow and how you want the results to appear.

Please give me a bit more detail and/or explain how you have designed your drawing to work so I can get you some better answers.

Re: How to Plot Hidden & Respect Lineweight?

ChrisRS — Thu, 22 Feb 2018 09:12:56 GMT

Try using the Legacy Hidden visual style.

The Legacy hidden output is vector based. Your lines display/print to the resolution of your output device (screen/printer).

Hidden, Shaded, etc are Raster based. The antialiasing tends to blur and visually widen the lines. (As a bonus the raster based files are huge.)

The Dark Side of Legacy Hidden:

All solids print hollow. This includes: Solids, Wide Polylines, Dimension Arrowheads, True Type Fonts

Work arounds:

Change your workflow
1. Don't use wide poly lines. Assign appropriate line weight, or set bylayer or assign to a layer with appropriate lineweight. or assign an appropriate color and adjust at plotting time. (I make Arrows using variable width polylines. No help for me.)
2. Move dimensions to paper space. (~~Transwarp~~ Transpatial Dimensioning)
3. Use stroke fonts in place of Truetype. To me, Simplex is the least offensive.
  (That said, Simplex is to my eyes what fingernails on a chalk board are to my ears.)
4. Decide that you really prefer open arrowheads and edit or make new dimension styles.
5. Move annotation to paper space. (I can live with this)
  N Civil 3D labels and tables must be in model space and cannot be moved to paper space.
  Outline Arial printed at 0.125" is not pretty. I guess.
  I'm not sure about other AutoCAD Verticals.
Overall brute force method:
1. Set your problem viewport to have a visual style of Legacy Hidden.
2. Make sure that this viewport is Display Locked.
3. Make a copy of this viewport and place is away from the original viewport
4. Set the visual style of the copy to 2D Wireframe
5. Working on the copied viewport, freeze all layers other than those with problem fills, such as solids and Truetype text, etc. The goal is to have as little displayed as possible in this viewport.
6. Optional - All of the layers you have on (unfrozen) in the wireframe viewport can be frozen in the legacy hidden viewport.
7. Move the wireframe viewport to be exactly on top of the legacy hidden viewport (Use Snap)
8. Now the two overlaid view ports collectively produce a nice vector based hidden view with solid fills.

Rube Goldberg would be so proud. I agree that this is overly complicated, but I can think of nothing more efficient considering the ongoing deficiencies in the legacy hidden visual style.

The oldest forum thread I find on this is from March 2008. Just short of 10 years.
Come on Autodesk, have some pride. Fix this!

Cheers!

Chris Stevens

@john.vellek, I appreciate your participation in this forum. In the past I have asked for an AutoCAD "Ideas" and you said that you had passed the request on to the team. I have reports this to "Feedback" with the hope that it is not just a black hole. I know about the AUGI wish list, but find it so cumbersome that it is waste of time. This is an ongoing, known issue. I'm sure that it will be lost in this somewhat esoteric posting.

Thanks!

Re: How to Plot Hidden & Respect Lineweight?

Anonymous — Thu, 22 Feb 2018 16:36:41 GMT

Hello John,

Thanks for your reply. The classic answer is, "I don't know what I did, but that's what happened!" My particular files aren't really required for this investigation. Anyone should be able to just create their own test file with some overlapping solids or surfaces and play with that. Ultimately, what I am hoping for is behavior that I would consider 'intuitive' surrounding the relationship between Visual Styles and Plotting As Displayed.

As a baseline, look at the way Properties are handled; values for line weight, color, and type, etc. are independent of one another. I can change and object line type without affecting the line weight.

So now, when I go to Visual Styles, and I see controls for the line type and color of Edge and Obscured, and one of the options is By Entity, it makes sense to me that I should be able to control these properties independently of whatever other properties the object might have. In other words, in the absence of any specific override enumerated in the Visual Style settings, the other display properties (such as Transparency, for example) should default to the properties already declared elsewhere for that object.

On the other hand, if I do set an override in a Visual Style (set Obscured line type = Dashed) I expect that only the line type of the underlying object will be changed from its 'native' state. The color, weight, transparency, scale, and every other property should remain unchanged.

So far so good, you can generally play around with the Visual Style settings and get what you want on the display. There are still some problems that I can see; poor to no control of the line scale, and overlapping edges are not 'Overkilled', so obscured faces viewed on edge often appear solid anyway. This last part is a real shame, because View Base seems to handle this so well.

Here is where the trouble really begins: When you set the Shade Plot to As Displayed, in my experience that is not what you get. That is what I was trying to convey in my post, that intuitively, from a user standpoint, plotting 'As Displayed' should come out 'As Displayed', unless additional overrides are put in place during the plot itself. So, if in the plot dialog, if I have a monochrome CTB, and all the settings for all the colors are 'Use object...', except that Color is black, the plot should stay true to the line type, scale, and weight of the display, only the color should change. That is not what I was getting.

I realize that some might find them useful, but personally, raster plots are worthless to me. When I first created this post, I was under the impression that the only way to get a vector plot that shows obscured lines was to use Legacy Hidden. I have since learned that you can also get one by setting the colors in the Hidden Visual Style to black and white. However, this still does not fix the lack of control over the weight and scale of the obscured lines. I regret that I put CTB into the mix of this discussion, I was only using it out of desperation. No more! CTB is a headache in the making. I do not want to go through life paranoid about what the display colors that I choose are going to do to the properties of my plot! Hence my attraction to 'As Displayed'.

Now I know a trick; set the Visual Style colors to black and white, Shade Plot As Displayed, and Plot Style None, you get pretty close to a good plot, but again for the obscured lines; the limited line type choices, the poor line scale control, and the interference caused by faces viewed on edge are all still pretty maddening.

In a perfect world, the software would somehow combine the best parts from each of two approaches; the View Port and the View Base. Each does some things well, and each has problems. View Port = good translation of visible object properties, poor translation of obscured. View Base = poor translation of visible object properties, better translation of obscured (line weight is still lost).

Re: How to Plot Hidden & Respect Lineweight?

john.vellek — Thu, 22 Feb 2018 16:47:24 GMT

HI @ChrisRS,

I assure you that when I say I am reporting something, that I am indeed doing so. Obviously I am just a little Tech support person and don't have much influence but the more times something is mentioned, I hope that it gains notice.

If you also take a look at the Readme-preview guides that get released with updates and new product, you will notice that many of the new features are identified as coming from the AUGI Wishlist.

I know also for a fact that the Feedback does get looked at so please continue to contribute.

Re: How to Plot Hidden & Respect Lineweight?

ChrisRS — Thu, 22 Feb 2018 18:06:21 GMT

Thanks John,

I appreciate all that you said. I did not mean to imply that you had not done what you said you would do.

I have been using AutoCAD and Civil 3D for over 20 years and actually read the "Read me" and "What's new" files. I do not recall ever seeing AUGI mentioned, but I was probably not paying attention. The 2019 release is coming up so, I will read more carefully. I will try AUGI again.

I am glad that the Feedback gets looked at. I have heard that more that once. It would be nice if there was an autoreply message acknowledging that my feedback message was received. I think I submitted Feedback on sending an autoreply, but I have no way of checking. My memory is something of a black hole itself. Is the online portal the only way to provide Feedback or is there a corresponding email address? I would at least have a record of my submission if made via email.

Thanks again,

Chris

Re: How to Plot Hidden & Respect Lineweight?

john.vellek — Thu, 22 Feb 2018 18:20:12 GMT

Hi @ChrisRS,

No implications read into your message. I just wanted to provide assurance.

The Feedback page is a good route to go but you can also be involved by email if you join the Beta program. autocad.beta@autodesk.com

Re: How to Plot Hidden & Respect Lineweight?

Anonymous — Thu, 22 Feb 2018 19:02:15 GMT

To elaborate on what I briefly mentioned in my earlier post about the approaches that I think come closest to getting the desired results, but still fall short one way or the other, here is an example of plotting a View Port with a (tweaked) Hidden Visual Style As Displayed, versus plotting the same model with View Base. The model for this example consists of two surfaces of differing line weight, both contained within a cube. One surface is rectangular and thick, the other is trapezoidal and thin.

Example Model

I create some View Ports, set the Visual Style to Hidden, the Shade Plot to As Displayed, and then play around with the visual style settings to get what I want. The display shows obscured objects true to their line weight, but with a dashed line type. Perfect.

View Port Display, Associated Visual Style, & Shade Plot Settings

Now I try to plot according to the following settings.

View Port Plot Settings

I get this instead. Bummer. However, we are on the right track, in that line weight information is coming through, and we are trying to show the dashed lines.

View Port Plot

Alternately, I can create a similar layout using View Base.

View Base Display

This is undesirable for several reasons, most notably, line weight information has been lost, and skewed viewing angles are limited or difficult to achieve without some serious sectioning gymnastics. However, at least when you plot:

View Base Plot

More or less WYSIWYG! In the screen shots, it might look like the line weight has changed from display to plot, but if you zoom in on the actual display, you see that they are preserved.

So far, no good answer. Myself and others have found ways to 'Frankenstein' fake results, using multiple overlays of the same view, view port overrides, Plot Styles, etc. etc. However, IT SHOULD NOT BE THIS DIFFICULT!!

Re: How to Plot Hidden & Respect Lineweight?

Anonymous — Thu, 22 Feb 2018 20:57:52 GMT

Chris,

Thanks for your reply. You have obviously been at this for awhile yourself!

One other thing to note about Legacy Hidden Plots, if we haven't already, is that the plot behavior is governed by the 2D Wireframe Visual Style.

I also used to believe that Hidden, Shaded, etc. Plots would all be raster based, but then I discovered that if the Edge Settings are set to Show Isolines, you can get a vector plot this way also. However, the display accuracy of the obscured lines seems to suffer significantly.

I have a layout set up with all four View Ports all set to display a 'modified stock' Hidden Visual Style, with Edge Settings set to Show Isolines. Then I create two duplicates of this Hidden Visual Style; call one 'Hidden Facets', the other 'Hidden Isolines'. I set one View Port Shade Plot setting for each flavor of Hidden, plus one for Legacy Hidden, and then plot.

Note the different plot result for Hidden versus Hidden Isolines! Look carefully, and you see that the Visual Style settings are identical for each. So why the plots are different is beyond me.

Legacy Hidden Shade Plot & Settings

Hidden (Stock Modified) Shade Plot & Settings

Hidden Facets Shade Plot & Settings

Hidden Isolines Shade Plot & Settings

Mixed Shade Plot Results

Hidden Facets Shade Plot Detail

The heart breaking thing about the Hidden Facets result is that the obscured lines are plotted rather faithfully, but the fact that it is raster means that it is also garbage. On a side note, who knows what is the difference between 'Hidden' and 'Copy of Hidden' Visual Styles ?!?

Anyway, Here's hoping that all this gets sorted out sooner rather than later, and we can all go back to doing what we are supposed to be doing: designing cool stuff, NOT figuring out how to get the !@#$ing thing to print!

Cheers

Re: How to Plot Hidden & Respect Lineweight?

RobDraw — Fri, 23 Feb 2018 01:17:33 GMT

We?

Re: How to Plot Hidden & Respect Lineweight?

Anonymous — Wed, 16 May 2018 21:53:33 GMT

At the end of it all, basically what is needed is a way for the user to control the visibility of 'Facet Edge' settings as 'Linetype'-'ByEntity'. Both of these visibility states currently exist individually elsewhere, but not in combination.

For me, such a feature set would easily be the single most important thing that AutoCAD could do to improve the quality of their products. AutoCAD, are you listening?

I Want 'Edge Settings'-'Facet Edges'-'Linetype'-'ByEntity' !!!!

How to Plot Hidden & Respect Linetype?

Anonymous — Wed, 16 May 2018 21:58:03 GMT

For me, such a feature set would easily be the single most important thing that AutoCAD could do to improve the quality of their products. AutoCAD, are you listening?

I Want 'Edge Settings'-'Facet Edges'-'Linetype'-'ByEntity' !!!!

Re: How to Plot Hidden & Respect Lineweight?

Anonymous — Fri, 17 May 2019 05:10:24 GMT

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/autocad-forum/hidden-lines-do-not-plot-as-dashed/m-p/2852612#M245918

dedun

Re: How to Plot Hidden & Respect Lineweight?

RobDraw — Fri, 17 May 2019 10:57:15 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:

I believe I am familiar with most, if not all of the plot styles and options, so please try not to insult me by asking if I have looked in my CTB file, or if I have checked the 'Plot object lineweights' box under the 'Plot options' of the 'Plot...' dialog, or what the 'Visual style' or 'Shade plot' settings of my viewport are, etc. etc. etc. ad nausea.

This kind of information is necessary in trouble shooting. You must be pretty sensitive if getting asked such questions is insulting to you.

Re: How to Plot Hidden & Respect Lineweight?

Anonymous — Thu, 17 Dec 2020 14:21:45 GMT

Try, in visualizations 2D Wireframe, 2D Hide-Occluded Lines, Linetype: Long Dash, and set color to white. Then select the Paper Space viewport, then in properties, plot as hidden. And, be sure inside each viewport that it is set to hidden. It worked for me.